Calculations in Marvel's Diversity

[Marvel_Is]

Do you think they publish straight white males comics because they're homophobic? Or maybe they have a thing for straight white males?

What Marvel loves is money and right now, diversity is the cash cow.

As long as the diversity doesn't derail my enjoyment of the comics (which it slowly is), may Marvel best every lesser publisher in existence. I'm a Marvel supporter either way, so seeing them stay comfortably in the lead with newb minority characters of all things make it all the more sweeter.

[skyvolt2000]

Yes, I know that minority-led series get axed from time to time, but so do non-minority titles. If it seems like it happens more frequently to minority-oriented titles it's because the support wasn't there from minorities themselves who talk of supporting each other.

Excuse you...

No minority is under any obligation to support a minority book.

So please stop tossing that offensive line that seem to constantly pop up in threads.

See we aren't like some of you who will buy a bad book nonstop because of a character or the fear a minority will be added to boost sales.

Some things to think about...

1) Maybe the reason that minority book failed was because it was a BAD book. Many tend to be that because Z list talent keeps getting a hold of them.

It's not about A list talent being on those books, it's about getting someone who can do the book JUSTICE. She Hulk fails but at least you can say they were decent reads. Which is that all fans want.

2) You do know there are books that do not get sold in comic book stores. You have stores that will not sell a book no matter who asks for it. Archie Afterlife, Grifter and a few others have fallen victim to that.

3) Minority books tend to be first come first serve books that don't get reordered. Young Avengers, Static, Savage Dragon and others have been victims of that. So a person ends up having to trade wait and by then it's too late.

4) Location-not everyone has a comic book store near them. And as I have learned recently with minority related stuff is location varies. Funny how Miles Morales stuff can not be found in minority neighborhoods but can in white ones.

5) If I live near a used book store that sales comics CHEAP-why would I buy it new from a comic book store? Lets see 40 issues of Justice League at $4 or 40 issues of Justice League at 50 cent-if I wait?

And this can apply to non-minority books. The only difference is when it's Gambit-he is FREE to get chance after chance with little or no complaint.

When it Black Panther-we get essays about why he doesn't deserve one when he has had longer runs than Ant-Man & Man thing.

We get attitudes when we see minorities get belittle and insulted for nothing more than the color of their skin. And you can't say it's not true as many of the ones who get attacked have only been in their solo book like a Static. And when you confront those about what made them hate that minority-you never get reply.

[Marvel_Is]

alright, i can see the need for marvel to be diverse, so they can make money. What i don't see is why fans demand marvel be diverse. Who are you to tell someone how to do what they do? Sure, it's false representation if all your characters are white males, but if the writer wants all their character to be white, then i don't see why the writer should be required to change their characters/add new characters just to be diverse.

Thank You!

[aja_christopher]

We are both seeing what we believe we are seeing and I believe you and I are done here. Peace.

What was easy to "see" was that "minority"-led books were dominating Marvel icons like Spiderman, Cyclops, Iron Man, The Hulk and Punisher.

Had nothing to do with what I "believed" -- it was all right there in the link that I provided.

[chaosfist]

Your analysis of the two-step process is bang on. Marvel knows very well that controversy sells, and that comic book fans are, in general, continuity enthusiasts. So when something like the gay Bobby thing comes along, people (myself included) get frustrated at the willingness to cast continuity aside. That the reason behind it is diversity doesn't factor into it for most of us; just the fact that the characters we enjoy are being toyed with in ways that go completely against their entire history is what annoys people.

If Marvel's interest was really in diversifying their brand, they would create new minority characters rather than drastically altering established non-minority characters. Why aren't they dedicating books to lesser-known existing minority characters? Why aren't they creating new minority characters, then putting big-name writers on their books? Because they don't have the faith that it will sell. And that is all it comes down to.

They don't have faith it will sell because it won't sell. Why do people think that a company should lose money to placate them? They wanted to do what they did and they did it. All you can do is buy it or not buy it.

[aja_christopher]

They don't have faith it will sell because it won't sell. Why do people think that a company should lose money to placate them? They wanted to do what they did and they did it. All you can do is buy it or not buy it.

Again, it depends on the book.

Silk is doing just fine and Miles is outselling both the Hulk and the Punisher.

Generalizing about "minorities" is like generalizing about "white male" books -- just because Gambit doesn't sell doesn't mean Deadpool will be a flop.

[Marvel_Is]

Excuse you...

No minority is under any obligation to support a minority book.

So please stop tossing that offensive line that seem to constantly pop up in threads.

See we aren't like some of you who will buy a bad book nonstop because of a character or the fear a minority will be added to boost sales.

Some things to think about...

1) Maybe the reason that minority book failed was because it was a BAD book. Many tend to be that because Z list talent keeps getting a hold of them.

It's not about A list talent being on those books, it's about getting someone who can do the book JUSTICE. She Hulk fails but at least you can say they were decent reads. Which is that all fans want.

2) You do know there are books that do not get sold in comic book stores. You have stores that will not sell a book no matter who asks for it. Archie Afterlife, Grifter and a few others have fallen victim to that.

3) Minority books tend to be first come first serve books that don't get reordered. Young Avengers, Static, Savage Dragon and others have been victims of that. So a person ends up having to trade wait and by then it's too late.

4) Location-not everyone has a comic book store near them. And as I have learned recently with minority related stuff is location varies. Funny how Miles Morales stuff can not be found in minority neighborhoods but can in white ones.

5) If I live near a used book store that sales comics CHEAP-why would I buy it new from a comic book store? Lets see 40 issues of Justice League at $4 or 40 issues of Justice League at 50 cent-if I wait?

And this can apply to non-minority books. The only difference is when it's Gambit-he is FREE to get chance after chance with little or no complaint.

When it Black Panther-we get essays about why he doesn't deserve one when he has had longer runs than Ant-Man & Man thing.

We get attitudes when we see minorities get belittle and insulted for nothing more than the color of their skin. And you can't say it's not true as many of the ones who get attacked have only been in their solo book like a Static. And when you confront those about what made them hate that minority-you never get reply.

"No minority is under any obligation to support a minority book."

After reading all you've posted, I think this needs to be challenged.

[Marvel_Is]

They don't have faith it will sell because it won't sell. Why do people think that a company should lose money to placate them? They wanted to do what they did and they did it. All you can do is buy it or not buy it.

Entitlement. People holding a bigger perceived greatness about themselves than is actually realized.

[aja_christopher]

"No minority is under any obligation to support a minority book."

After reading all you've posted, I think this needs to be challenged.

Why? It's absolutely true.

I wouldn't buy an Iron Patriot book or a Luke Cage solo because I'm not interested in the characters. Just because they are black -- like myself -- doesn't obligate me to support them, especially if they aren't good titles.

Ms. Marvel? Black Widow? Absolutely.

Luke Cage? War Machine? Probably not.

It's the same logic I apply to any other book (or movie, or game, etc) -- "minorities" are not some monolithic demographic who all feel the same about every single issue any more than every white guy you know will listen to the same music or want to buy the same kind of car.

If I had to choose between Ultimate Spiderman drawn by Sara Pichelli or Amazing Spiderman drawn by John Romita Jr, I'm going with Sara Pichelli on Ultimate.

Reverse the artists and I'm going with Peter Parker, Amazing Spiderman.

It's that simple.

Entitlement. People holding a bigger perceived greatness about themselves than is actually realized.

Wow.

Truly amazing how some people don't recognize that they shouldn't throw stones while living in glass houses.

I'll sum it up by saying that if "minorities" are "derailing" your enjoyment of Marvel books then maybe you should simply not buy said books. Kamala Khan and Cindy Moon and Gwen Stacy and Miles Morales are not jumping into your hands nor are they forcing your wallet.

If it is "guest appearances" or "legacy characters" you are referring to, this is no different than from when "white male" characters do exactly the same thing -- whether it is Bucky Barnes or Doc Ock or Ben Reilly.

If you didn't make an issue about "race" (or "gender" or "sexuality") then, then you shouldn't do it now.

[Marvel_Is]

Why? It's absolutely true.

I wouldn't buy an Iron Patriot book or a Luke Cage solo because I'm not interested in the characters. Just because they are black -- like myself -- doesn't obligate me to support them, especially if they aren't good titles.

Ms. Marvel? Black Widow? Absolutely.

Luke Cage? War Machine? Probably not.

It's the same logic I apply to any other book (or movie, or game, etc) -- "minorities" are not some monolithic demographic who all feel the same about every single issue any more than every white guy you know will listen to the same music or want to buy the same kind of car.

If I had to choose between Ultimate Spiderman drawn by Sara Pichelli or Amazing Spiderman drawn by John Romita Jr, I'm going with Sara Pichelli on Ultimate.

Reverse the artists and I'm going with Peter Parker, Amazing Spiderman.

It's that simple.

Minority issues are just so complex. You want to be represented thoroughly, but you won't support these representations??? Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. Do you think every issue of Amazing Spider-Man is stellar?

Wow.

Truly amazing how some people don't recognize that they shouldn't throw stones while living in glass houses...

Come again?

[aja_christopher]

Minority issues are just so complex. You want to be represented thoroughly, but you won't support these representations??? Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad.

Um, no... I don't.

Again, it's not complex -- I'll even give you a sample formula.

Ms. Marvel: G. Willow Wilson + Adrian Aphona = Success.

Ms. Marvel: Chuck Austen + Rob Leifield = Not as Successful.

Another example...

Welsley Snipes + Blade = Success.

Shaquille O' Neal + Steel = Not so Successful.

You're trying to make this about "minority representation" as if the quality of said title doesn't matter.

I'm repeatedly pointing out to you that quality is probably the most important aspect of all, but you won't listen to what a "minority" actually has to say about the matter as you are too busy leaning on your own misconceptions about "minorities" to actually learn something from our dialogue.

[Marvel_Is]

I'll sum it up by saying that if "minorities" are "derailing" your enjoyment of Marvel books then maybe you should simply not buy said books. Kamala Khan and Cindy Moon and Gwen Stacy and Miles Morales are not jumping into your hands nor are they forcing your wallet.

If it is "guest appearances" or "legacy characters" you are referring to, this is no different than from when "white male" characters do exactly the same thing -- whether it is Bucky Barnes or Doc Ock or Ben Reilly.

If you didn't make an issue about "race" then, then you shouldn't do it now.

I'm a Marvel comics fan first, so I refuse to be just limited to a certain selection of comics because minority diversity is so important to minorities (only). My wallet is being forced to protect the Marvel Universe I hold so dear. I will not be driven away by forced diversity quietly. And that is a distinct difference between Marvel fans and Minority Marvel "fans" - Marvel fans can and will put our money where our mouth is.

[Marvel_Is]

Um, no... I don't.

Again, it's not complex -- I'll even give you a sample formula.

Ms. Marvel: G. Willow Wilson + Adrian Aphona = Success.

Ms. Marvel: Chuck Austen + Rob Leifield = Not as Successful.

Another example...

Welsley Snipes + Blade = Success.

Shaquille O' Neal + Steel = Not so Successful.

You're trying to make this about "minority representation" as if the quality of said title doesn't matter.

I'm repeatedly pointing out to you that quality is probably the most important aspect of all, but you won't listen to what a "minority" actually has to say about the matter as you are too busy leaning on your own misconceptions about "minorities" to actually learn something from our dialogue.

Quality is subjective. The work of Brian Bendis is seen industry-wide as a measure of quality. Minorities have a dark road ahead of them. Now I see why diversity is being forced upon me.

[aja_christopher]

I'm a Marvel comics fan first, so I refuse to be just limited to a certain selection of comics because minority diversity is so important to minorities (only). My wallet is being forced to protect the Marvel Universe I hold so dear. I will not be driven away by forced diversity quietly. And that is a distinct difference between Marvel fans and Minority Marvel "fans" - Marvel fans can and will put our money where our mouth is.

The only person "driving" you away is you... not Marvel.

If it upsets you that much to see a person of color, a woman, or a gay or lesbian character featured in a book, then don't buy that book. Spiderman is still there for you, as is The Hulk, Punisher, Deadpool, Cyclops, Iron Man, etc, etc, ad infinitum. The creation of "minority" characters and books does not equal the elimination of "white males" no matter how much you try to argue otherwise: opening the door for more diversity does not mean closing the door for white males, as you seem to keep insinuating in your posts.

If you think that's what's happening, then just practice what you preach and support "your" books -- maybe if you do that enough, they'll make a few more books with white males in them (and maybe even a few movies and videogames as well).

I think the most disappointing aspect of this conversation is that you're still on this trip of acting as if Marvel "minority" books don't sell, even though I've already provided you with a link that shows this simply isn't true.

That said, I can only assume at this point that you're here to rant and argue, rather than have a real dialogue, and as such, there isn't much point in continuing this conversation.

All I can say in closing is get used to it... because things are only going to get even more "diverse" in the future.

[Marvel_Is]

Why does Marvel have to be diverse?

It doesn't have to be, but we live in a world that if you don't bow to societal pressures, you could lose your livelihood.