Calculations in Marvel's Diversity

[Tiamatty]

You ought to read the OP again, because at no point did he refer to straight characters as being 'taken away'. Both you and Kieran have used that phrase, and both of you have put it in quotation marks for some reason.

This is what he said;



Taking from is not the same as taking away. As far as I can see, you are arguing with a point that you have made up.

I'd say "taking from" is similar enough. It's still insinuating that straight people are being deprived of that character. He's still asking why people who want diversity have to take from his side, so to speak.



Even the idea that diversity isn't a zero-sum game is slightly flawed. There are only so many slots open, so only so many characters can be used. For every slot filled by a straight white male, that's one less slot that can be filled by women, people of colour and LGBT people.

This becomes a problem because writers want to use the characters they love - the characters they grew up with. And the characters they grew up with were straight white males. Those are the characters every writer grew up with, because those were the only characters that existed. And still today, those are the characters who get the most focus. Today's young readers are still growing up with the same damned characters from 50 years ago, so today's readers are going to grow up to write those characters, and nothing will ever change. Unless a conscious decision is made to say, "No, to hell with that."

People who grow up with Sam Wilson as Captain America, seeing him in multiple books every month, are going to care about him more, and are going to have their own Sam Wilson stories they want to write, rather than just re-writing the same damned Steve Rogers stories we've gotten again and again and again. People who grow up with a gay Iceman are going to want to write stories about Iceman dating a guy.

It's a long game, which is what makes it important to start early, and to not stop playing it.

[gurkle]

Again, I agree. Besides that to me personally handing me a character based off another character doesn't feel like diversity to me.

Maybe not, but it works. Some of the best female characters in superhero comics are the ones spun off from an existing male character: Supergirl, Batgirl, She-Hulk. She-Hulk started just as an attempt to get the trademark on the name, and eventually turned into maybe Marvel's best solo heroine.

I don't think women spun off from men are inherently better; it's just that in superhero comics, most of the prize characters are white males, and characters who are connected to the white male heroes have a better chance of not being forgotten about.

Everything comes back to the fact that readers don't want a lot of new superheroes. So more people will buy a book about a superpowered woman if she's called "Thor" than if she has the same powers but is called, I don't know, "Lightning Lady." It might be more empowering to create Lightning Lady and make her completely separate from the white male hero, but her book would also fail, and failed books don't help anyone.

[SolarRadical]

100% agree.

And the fact that the "real" Bobby Drake is still running around and has yet to claim that his sexuality is any way influenced by "teen" Bobby's decision is what most people seem to want to ignore.

The same way that Steve Rogers, Thor, Peter Parker and Carol Danvers are still out there... nothing is being "taken from" -- if anything, all Marvel is doing is adding to, which is a good thing.



So the Eisner nominated, seven-reprint selling Ms. Marvel is a "terrible execution"? Sam Wilson logically taking over the mantle for his friend of forty years is "terrible execution"? People spending billions of dollars to see a movie with "Black Fury" in it is "terrible execution"? Spider-Gwen and Silk debuting in the Top 10 is "terrible execution"? Actually making Bobby Drake relevant is "terrible execution"?

At least be objective in your assertions -- if these things are "terrible executions" then why are they making money, expanding the fanbase and garnering public interest if not critical acclaim?

I think you Missed "for the most part" and there is a deference between Sam Jackson fury, and that abomination called black fury they tried to shoe horn into the comics, and I don't believe for one second that anyone who read it would say its good.

And It is also quite sad that people only care about the popularity of minorities, you don't want that Minority you want the popular one so people can parade it around and be in the "in group" and the fact that people only care now about iceman because of his sexuality makes one look shallow when the character has 50 years of stories and along with the execution being awful(and a disservice) but that doesn't matter because people finally got there A list superstar gay hero. story telling doesn't matter as long as you shove as many minorities you can in it now an no one can tell its a sub-par story or they wont call you out on it because they'll be called bigots from the PC brigade.

I'm not the biggest Iceman fan but I do think his fan should be upset he got replaced with a gimmick.

[leo619]

So ultimately this post is merely just another post of why take away established characters when you can create new characters. Jesus christ the answer to this question has been addressed so many times that one just needs to look through the many posts stemming from this article as to why both Marvel and DC feel they have to make changes to existing character. The answer is simple, New Minority characters doesn't sell. It's that simple, the current comic book audience is an audience driven by nostalgia, and as such are unwilling to give new characters, especially minority new characters a chance unless that character has a sense of familiarity of being either taking over an existing popular hero mantle or being a legacy character themselves.

The answer to these things are so in front of people face but they refuse to accept this answer. If you want to this to stop, than simple. Start buying new minority character series and make sure they succeed. The Mighty Avengers is a perfect example of this, filled with almost all original characters either new or established, written consistently with high critical reviews and yet barely hanged above the cancellation line. It's problems such as this that causes your Thor to become a female and the like, as Thor is consistent top 10 selling book from Marvel while Mighty Avengers wouldn't have lasted 3 more months.

[aja_christopher]

I think you Missed "for the most part" and there is a deference between Sam Jackson fury, and that abomination called black fury they tried to shoe horn into the comics, and I don't believe for one second that anyone who read it would say its good.

And It is also quite sad that people only care about the popularity of minorities, you don't want that Minority you want the popular one so people can parade it around and be in the "in group" and the fact that people only care now about iceman because of his sexuality makes one look shallow when the character has 50 years of stories and along with the execution being awful(and a disservice) but that doesn't matter because people finally got there A list superstar gay hero. story telling doesn't matter as long as you shove as many minorities you can in it now an no one can tell its a sub-par story or they wont call you out on it because they'll be called bigots from the PC brigade.

I'm not the biggest Iceman fan but I do think his fan should be upset he got replaced with a gimmick.

Again -- you are not being objective: pointing out "Black Fury" while ignoring everything else I mentioned does not qualify as "for the most part".

With regards to storytelling -- are you actually reading the stories involving "minorities" that you are you are complaining about? Certainly you can't be doing so with Iceman because there has only been one issue so far -- and I seriously doubt that you are following all of the other "minority" books that you are complaining about (Ms. Marvel, Silk, Thor, Ultimate Spider Man, etc) so your complaints are really about not liking the "PC brigade" more than not liking the stories themselves.

The fact that I even have to tell you that Iceman hasn't been "replaced" by anything -- gimmick or otherwise -- speaks volumes about the relative futility of even having this dialogue with you. If you want to continue to read about "straight" Bobby Drake, or "white" Peter Parker, or "non-Muslim" Carol Danvers, no one is stopping you from doing so. Those books are still out there, ready and waiting for your perusal.

Why you find it problematic that some of us (many of us, judging from the success of books like Ms. Marvel and Silk) have and choose to enjoy other options is beyond me... unless this is more about you not wanting to see those "diverse" options being available than it is about you caring about "storytelling" as you claim.

At the end of the day, no one is forcing you to read these "diverse" books... but you are doing yourself a disservice if you don't at least keep an open mind about them. Most of the reviews have been pretty good thus far and the sales reflect this.

Your war on the "PC brigade" is hurting you more than it is anyone else, especially given the fact that things are only going to get even more "diverse" as time goes on...

[Tiamatty]

I'm not the biggest Iceman fan but I do think his fan should be upset he got replaced with a gimmick.

Well it's a good thing that's not what's actually happened.

But by all means, get angry that one character is no longer straight. The fact that you still have every other character is no reason why you shouldn't be upset that one single, solitary character is being used to explore a story about coming to terms with one's sexuality.

[JoeWithoutFear]

Even the idea that diversity isn't a zero-sum game is slightly flawed. There are only so many slots open, so only so many characters can be used. For every slot filled by a straight white male, that's one less slot that can be filled by women, people of colour and LGBT people.

At any given time in Marvel comics, each month there are several books that overlap with the same hero (Cap, Wolverine, Spidey, etc). So much so that it creates awful and annoying continuity problems. My thinking has always been that each character should regularly appear in no more than one monthly book. Bam. There's your room for new characters, and the characters that have survived for decades because people like them how they are can remain that way.

I mean really, how hard of a compromise was that? Even if we cut some of those down to no more than 2 monthly books, that frees up a ton of room. It's not that outside-the-box of a plan, and it would allow everyone a chance to get what they want. Maybe it's not a perfect idea, but, it's one born from trying to make the most people happy. Which is where I think the philosophy should be.

But, honestly, judging by some people's tone, I don't get the sense that they care at all about trying to make everyone happy. I think, as I said up front, they see this all as a good vs. evil battle. And if that's where your head is at, that somehow now we have to take turns being happy and someone's turn is justifiably over, then, there's not really going to be any reasoning with that. I hope I'm wrong, but, I'm not hearing it from some people and this certainly wouldn't be the first time. =\

[HUTHAIFA]

Sometimes it's the company. See Static, Cassandra Cain & Stephanie Brown at DC. The excuse for these three has been "our editors won't let us use them." Even though they have fans.

Look at it like this-I wouldn't need a gay Iceman in X-Men if I was allowed to use the already established ones in the book. Using Iceman doesn't remove the character-it just OPENS the door to explore LGBT issues with someone that no one has to worry about getting axed or sent to limbo or be big event death fodder.



Sometime you have to do it in order to tell the story that you want to tell or justify something.

Look at Falcon. Does ANY of the things happening with him if he was not Captain America? Him in 4-5 ongoings? Posters? Juicy gigs in big events? NO. So Steve Rogers gets a vacation and Falcon gets another set of stories.

Same with Lady Thor. We know Thor & Steve will be back. The question will be with Lady Thor selling so well-he might come back earlier and allow her to be herself in her own series under a new name.

Like Huthaifa said sometimes it's fans. If you really don't want a black Captain America or Lady Thor-support NEW folks or the ones whoa re already established. It doesn't always mean spending money but some respectable and civil comments could help.

Exactly. James Rhodes is the poster boy for this. Its the follow through. He was the substitute Iron Man, and then he stepped into his own as War Machine. He is popular enough to get several attempts as a solo, and occassionally make teams, buts where it ends. They gave a poc character a platform, and fans decide whether they support it or not. If enough fans buy the book, then Marvel will keep making it.

[HUTHAIFA]

At any given time in Marvel comics, each month there are several books that overlap with the same hero (Cap, Wolverine, Spidey, etc). So much so that it creates awful and annoying continuity problems. My thinking has always been that each character should regularly appear in no more than one monthly book. Bam. There's your room for new characters, and the characters that have survived for decades because people like them how they are can remain that way.

I mean really, how hard of a compromise was that? Even if we cut some of those down to no more than 2 monthly books, that frees up a ton of room. It's not that outside-the-box of a plan, and it would allow everyone a chance to get what they want. Maybe it's not a perfect idea, but, it's one born from trying to make the most people happy. Which is where I think the philosophy should be.

But, honestly, judging by some people's tone, I don't get the sense that they care at all about trying to make everyone happy. I think, as I said up front, they see this all as a good vs. evil battle. And if that's where your head is at, that somehow now we have to take turns being happy and someone's turn is justifiably over, then, there's not really going to be any reasoning with that. I hope I'm wrong, but, I'm not hearing it from some people and this certainly wouldn't be the first time. =\

There is a lot of tin foil hats in fandom and there is a lot of excuse making in publishing. It can be an unhealthy mix.

[HUTHAIFA]

Your war on the "PC brigade" is hurting you more than it is anyone else, especially given the fact that things are only going to get even more "diverse" as time goes on...

Ouch, the truth hurts

[aja_christopher]

But, honestly, judging by some people's tone, I don't get the sense that they care at all about trying to make everyone happy. I think, as I said up front, they see this all as a good vs. evil battle. And if that's where your head is at, that somehow now we have to take turns being happy and someone's turn is justifiably over, then, there's not really going to be any reasoning with that. I hope I'm wrong, but, I'm not hearing it from some people and this certainly wouldn't be the first time. =\

Actually, that's not it at all and as someone who has been a participant on the threads about "diversity" for quite some time now I can tell you from firsthand experience that this is not about "good vs. evil" or ending someone's "turn" -- the vast majority of us just want fair representation, something "non-minorities" have had in excess for so long that they don't even know what it's like not to have it.

I'm black, but I'm more interested in seeing an Iron Fist Netflix series than a Luke Cage series (and I'd rather see a Karolina Dean series than either of the above). That said, I'm glad that they are actually making a Luke Cage series, and -- who knows -- I might enjoy it more than the Iron Fist series. God knows I didn't really care a whit for Daredevil prior to his series, but now I'm a firm believer.

Point being, this isn't about "good vs. evil" or "taking turns" -- this is about having options, because -- again -- who knows? I might actually discover something new (story-wise, character-wise, plot-wise) in the process.

I didn't know I'd enjoy a story about a teenage Muslim girl until I actually read it -- now she's one of my favorite comic book characters of all time. Same goes for Karolina Dean and Remy Lebeau and Kenji Uedo and Roberto da Costa and Monet St. Croix and Kiden Nixon and Nico Minoru and Danny Rand and Dani Moonstar and Kurt Wagner, etc -- none of those characters look like me or share my "race" but I still enjoy reading about them and I'm glad that the writers saw fit to create such a diverse range of characters, whether they are "legacy" characters or "originals".

There shouldn't be a "conflict" just because Iceman might be gay or Thor might be a woman or Nova or Ghost Rider might be Hispanic, nor should we have an issue just because Kamala Khan or Miles Morales decide that they want to take up the mantle of another hero who inspired them; the conflict comes about when people complain that these options even exist in the first place.

That said, I agree with your sentiment regarding getting more original characters (like Karolina or Triage or Miss America) out there, but the business reality is that it's easier to build on a legacy than it is to generate interest in a "new" or "seldom used" character.

[JoeWithoutFear]

@aja_christopher

More on this later (cookin' dinner.... prolly gonna eat it soon.... seems logical) but Triage is great ^_^

[aja_christopher]

@aja_christopher

More on this later (cookin' dinner.... prolly gonna eat it soon.... seems logical) but Triage is great ^_^

Cool -- I'm glad we can have a respectful dialogue on this and I appreciate you opening it up for discussion.

[leo619]

Actually, that's not it at all and as someone who has been a participant on the threads about "diversity" for quite some time now I can tell you from firsthand experience that this is not about "good vs. evil" or ending someone's "turn" -- the vast majority of us just want fair representation, something "non-minorities" have had in excess for so long that they don't even know what it's like not to have it.

I'm black, but I'm more interested in seeing an Iron Fist Netflix series than a Luke Cage series (and I'd rather see a Karolina Dean series than either of the above). That said, I'm glad that they are actually making a Luke Cage series, and -- who knows -- I might enjoy it more than the Iron Fist series. God knows I didn't really care a whit for Daredevil prior to his series, but now I'm a firm believer.

Point being, this isn't about "good vs. evil" or "taking turns" -- this is about having options, because -- again -- who knows? I might actually discover something new (story-wise, character-wise, plot-wise) in the process.

I didn't know I'd enjoy a story about a teenage Muslim girl until I actually read it -- now she's one of my favorite comic book characters of all time. Same goes for Karolina Dean and Remy Lebeau and Kiden Nixon and Dani Moonstar and Kurt Wagner, etc -- none of those characters look like me or share my "race" but I still enjoy reading about them and I'm glad that the writers saw fit to create such a diverse range of characters, whether they are "legacy" characters or "originals".

There shouldn't be a "conflict" just because Iceman might be gay or Thor might be a woman or Nova or Ghost Rider might be Hispanic, nor should we have an issue just because Kamala Khan or Miles Morales decide that they want to take up the mantle of another hero who inspired them; the conflict comes about when people complain that these options even exist in the first place.

That said, I agree with your sentiment regarding getting more original characters (like Karolina or Triage or Miss America) out there, but the business reality is that it's easier to build on a legacy than it is to generate interest in a "new" or "seldom used" character.

This post right here pretty much closes the thread. It embodies the truth in pretty much all aspect. The only thing I would add on top of this is going further into detail regarding how non-minorities, especially white males have been enjoying these mostly all white superheroes and all white teams. Nevermind all the damaging after affects that comes from a mostly monoethnic media portrayal such as the doll test and how black children and white girls have lower self esteem due to television in comparison to white boys who have high self esteem. Even with the miniscule changes that have been made within the pool of heroes out there, over 90% of heroes are white and majority males. But America is changing, in just 35 more years whites will be a minority, and already the changes are starting to be reflected within the media. So those that are upset now are in for a rude awakening in the future. But those that are fidgeting at the changes now get perhaps what 0.000001% of what minorities had to go through within comics for decades.

[Kencana]

If Marvel's interest was really in diversifying their brand, they would create new minority characters rather than drastically altering established non-minority characters. Why aren't they dedicating books to lesser-known existing minority characters? Why aren't they creating new minority characters, then putting big-name writers on their books? Because they don't have the faith that it will sell. And that is all it comes down to.

Please pardon my language. Sorry if this seem harsh.

What happened to new minority book that ain't a legacy? Cancelled. Unless s/he a "spin-off" or related to male superhero then they don't sell. Maybe if more fans would buy more book staring original minority lead then it could work. There are fans that like "Gender/race/sexual orientation didn't matter to me as long as they're interesting!" and yet only buy Batman, Batman, Superman, Iron Man, Spider-Man and other book featuring straight white male. Idk. It seem that people who want diversity is the one that support them. The rest? Too busy worshipping Batman maybe.

If you don't want Marvel to change established character into minority, then support original 'minority' book (Silk, Spider-Gwen, etc etc). I swear some of them are good book with high quality art and writing. Soon DC is gonna launch Midnighter, a solo book featuring gay male and a ton solo featuring female/POC lead. Most of them are original character that ain't a legacy or racebending. Support that book will you. Prove it to DC and Marvel that you like original minority.