MCU Daredevil Replaces Captain America in... TWS

[Morning]

True, although by that token, Daredevil would probably be able to sense the intent of the fake SHIELD agents a lot quicker than Cap could with their sweat (maybe even before he gets in the elevator), and just wouldn't get into that fight in the first place.

Cap is on the elevator first, then gets joined by the agents, starting with Crossbones and two others. That right there is enough to make it very hard for Matt to get away. But even if Matt surprises them with their backs turned, he still has the problem of being on a high floor of a fortress filled with hundreds of skilled, armed and highly organized enemies.

[William300]

Mob enforcers are hardly untrained average joes and he beat up 8 of them while wounded immensely.
The only "thugs" he had any problem beating were the two professional hitmen he fought, and in those fights he was never really in any danger, exact maybe being a little tired.
The first hitman being beaten confused Fisk because he was a trained professional, the second hitman was able to knock out two professional bodyguards in three seconds and then beat the guy they were protecting to death.

-just trying to kill this myth that he has trouble against average thugs.

there still just thugs compared to highly trained black ops agents. and it doesn't change the fact that when Matt fought someone with real training he was easily beaten and would have lost if Nobu hadn't caught fire. If he can't handle one assassin, then how is he going to deal with entire squads of trained killers? And like I said, he's under-trained and lacks experience. All the people Cap fought were highly trained and had experience.

[Postmania]

there still just thugs compared to highly trained black ops agents. and it doesn't change the fact that when Matt fought someone with real training he was easily beaten and would have lost if Nobu hadn't caught fire. If he can't handle one assassin, then how is he going to deal with entire squads of trained killers? And like I said, he's under-trained and lacks experience. All the people Cap fought were highly trained and had experience.

None of the mooks that Cap fought were on the level of Nobu, who is one of the most impressive non-Cap/Bucky combatants in the MCU. They are not equivalent.

Cap is on the elevator first, then gets joined by the agents, starting with Crossbones and two others. That right there is enough to make it very hard for Matt to get away. But even if Matt surprises them with their backs turned, he still has the problem of being on a high floor of a fortress filled with hundreds of skilled, armed and highly organized enemies.

True, but Matt can do things like sense people across an apartment building. That might allow him to know to attack/stop the elevator even before they join him. Of course, he doesn't have specific feats for intention at that distance afaik, but it's possible.

However, he would never beat Bucky, in any case. Not even with help from BW and Falco.

[William300]

None of the mooks that Cap fought were on the level of Nobu, who is one of the most impressive non-Cap/Bucky combatants in the MCU. They are not equivalent.

I never said they were. But there still far better trained then all of the criminals (except for Nobu) he fought. If he has trouble with them, then how is he going to deal with squads of trained black ops agents?

[Morning]

If he can't handle one assassin, then how is he going to deal with entire squads of trained killers?

No agent on that elevator was equal to Nobu. Crossbones is good enough to make Matt work, though, particularly as the location limits the use of much agility.

[Postmania]

I never said they were. But there still far better trained then all of the criminals (except for Nobu) he fought. If he has trouble with them, then how is he going to deal with squads of trained black ops agents?

Does he have trouble with them? He took time to deal with them, but they had a ton of soak and the only times he was struggling or on the verge of being overwhlemed was when he was already shot, wounded, or half-dead in some way.

[William300]

Does he have trouble with them? He took time to deal with them, but they had a ton of soak and the only times he was struggling or on the verge of being overwhlemed was when he was already shot, wounded, or half-dead in some way.

Actually he had trouble in the very first fight we see him in. He had trouble with the guy he save Karen from, he wasn't badly injured, but he still had trouble with him. Also do I have to remind of of the beating that Night Nurse had to fix him up from, (when she found him in the dumpsters), that wasn't Nobu, those were the gangsters.

[QuickDevilRed]

Actually he had trouble in the very first fight we see him in. He had trouble with the guy he save Karen from, he wasn't badly injured, but he still had trouble with him. Also do I have to remind of of the beating that Night Nurse had to fix him up from, (when she found him in the dumpsters), that wasn't Nobu, those were the gangsters.

but as I said, that guy was a trained hitman, known for his ability by Fisk.
And again, he never was in serious trouble, he got hit a few times, ansd got tired, but the knife never got near him, and the most damage actually came from himself (he threw himself out the window).

[Postmania]

Actually he had trouble in the very first fight we see him in. He had trouble with the guy he save Karen from, he wasn't badly injured, but he still had trouble with him. Also do I have to remind of of the beating that Night Nurse had to fix him up from, (when she found him in the dumpsters), that wasn't Nobu, those were the gangsters.

True, but as the series continues he has less and less trouble, to the point where he was basically walking through the Russians who were out for blood and such.

[QuickDevilRed]

Of course, he doesn't have specific feats for intention at that distance afaik, but it's possible.

He was able to scan the entire warehouse on the water from a distance away, although he couldn't notice Nobu because of his ninja training.

[William300]

but as I said, that guy was a trained hitman, known for his ability by Fisk.
And again, he never was in serious trouble, he got hit a few times, ansd got tired, but the knife never got near him, and the most damage actually came from himself (he threw himself out the window).

Once again, I remind you of the near death beating he got from the gangsters that Night Nurse had to fix him up. Also doubt that Fisk's hitman was as good as a black ops SHIELD/HYDRA agent.

[Postmania]

I suppose I just don't see the (onscreen) difference in skill and training to be making as much of a difference as some of you guys think.

It has been a while since I saw TWS, though, so I could be wrong.

One thing though, if it comes to the elevator fight as presented in the movie Matt isn't getting out of that one. There's just too many people in a closed space for a non-peak human to realistically get out of imo.

[Morning]

By the way, if we're considering how Matt would do things differently than Cap, we must also consder that Hydra would do things differently too. Obviously they would know that Matt is blind relies of super-senses to operate. The fact that they brought the bracelet and the stun batons shows their willingness and ability to prep for unconventional opponents (it's not their fault that cap is just a demon).

[Postmania]

By the way, if we're considering how Matt would do things differently than Cap, we must also consder that Hydra would do things differently too. Obviously they would know that Matt is blind relies of super-senses to operate. The fact that they brought the bracelet and the stun batons shows their willingness and ability to prep for unconventional opponents (it's not their fault that cap is just a demon).

Also true.
Well if we're presuming that they know as much about Matt as they do Cap...

Then it's quite likely they just hire a large group of Hand ninjas and throw them at Daredevil in some alley somewhere. Have them all in hibernation state, come out when he's in range. Don't see him getting out of that one.

[Morning]

Actually he had trouble in the very first fight we see him in. He had trouble with the guy he save Karen from, he wasn't badly injured, but he still had trouble with him. Also do I have to remind of of the beating that Night Nurse had to fix him up from, (when she found him in the dumpsters), that wasn't Nobu, those were the gangsters.

That was early-season Matt. He very noticeably improves with experience. By the end of the season he was reliably one/two-shotting most mooks.