Michael Bailey nails the problem with Superman and DC comics: NEW COSTUME…SAME DRAMA…DEEPER SHOVEL

[Myskin]

I do have to ask myself if Superman has jumped the shark. .

For our own mental health, I think that we should get rid of the idea that Superman, as a character, is immortal. As I always say, I don't think that a future where Batman is still published and Superman isn't is entirely out of question. After all, even mass icons die, and Superman one day could quietly reach the Valhalla where Flash Gordon, Popeye and Mandrake lie forever (except for some nostalgic, short-lived revival here and there).

[manofsteel1979]

Agh...totally screwed up my post and quotes. will fix and repost later tonight after work.

[jaybay]

For our own mental health, I think that we should get rid of the idea that Superman, as a character, is immortal. As I always say, I don't think that a future where Batman is still published and Superman isn't is entirely out of question. After all, even mass icons die, and Superman one day could quietly reach the Valhalla where Flash Gordon, Popeye and Mandrake lie forever (except for some nostalgic, short-lived revival here and there).

The more Superman media I consume, the more I'm okay with this happening.

[Blacksun]

I don't like the romance between WW and Superman, especially because I don't like heavy interactions between two major characters (every character should have their own universe and cast IMHO), but - even if that storyline isn't going anywhere - I understand why DC took that decision. Basically, they were trying to have Superman develop a new own romantic life and EVERY conceivable female character, including Lana Lang, would have appeared as a light version of Lois Lane. They had only one choice, that is a female character who was at the same time a major DC character, strong enough to have her own series for 70+ years. But aside from the Supes/WW storyline, I found it interesting that it made some heavy contradictions about Lois emerge. Basically, even if Lois as a character is represented as a strong and independent woman, when you take the romantic element out of the equation, she loses her purpose. And that's because for 75 years, her primary role was being Supes' primary romantic interest. And that's why almost nobody knows what to do with Lois now (even if they are attempting: Futures' end is largely a mess, but Lois is rather important there, and in Superman unchained too). From this point of view, Lois as a character is way less independent than, for example, James Gordon. DC could easily create a whole series entirely focused on Gordon without Batman (in fact they did it and are still doing it). But creating a whole series about the Daily Planet or Lois, without Superman or Clark, would require a LOT, and I mean a LOT of work (I'm not talking about one-shots, but a whole long-term series). For a number of reasons: in 75 years the Planet has never been developed as a plausible newspaper, Perry is a nice character but never really had a real development, etc. But, more than everything, because Lois has yet to find a role which wouldn't include the participation of Superman as a romantic interest. IMHO that's a very good example which explains why clinging to tradition ultimately damages the characters. Within Superman's lore there are a LOT of similar cases.

I think that Lois can stand outside of being a love interest for Superman, problem is: writers want it? editors want it?
even with snyder romantic intentions, he wrote a very good lois on unchained.
I think that the expectation of romantic story can frustrate the writers, but it is only a natural expectation after 70+ years of the couple.

[Myskin]

Daredevil is unique in that way, but 9 times out of 10, going back to that core of the original creation is key. For all the changes made, Batman. at his heart is the same character Kane and Finger brought about in their early stories. Again, there are differences, but It all thematically and mood wise stems from that first year or so. Superman is and should be no different.

I think that the inspiration to the original Batman in nowadays comic books is rather vague after all: I mean, Finger's Batman has much more in common with the Shadow (including the disinterest for criminals' death) than with the crimefighter we all know and love. Anyway, the line here is not very well-defined and it is a matter of personal taste. What I am saying is that, as far as I am concerned, I keep my mind open, because reinvention can be even radical, as long as it works. Some of my favourite comic books are reinventions, Like Graham's Prophet, one of the greatest comics out there.

[Agent Z]

I think that the inspiration to the original Batman in nowadays comic books is rather vague after all: I mean, Finger's Batman has much more in common with the Shadow (including the disinterest for criminals' death) than with the crimefighter we all know and love. Anyway, the line here is not very well-defined and it is a matter of personal taste. What I am saying is that, as far as I am concerned, I keep my mind open, because reinvention can be even radical, as long as it works. Some of my favourite comic books are reinventions, Like Graham's Prophet, one of the greatest comics out there.

I don't have an issue with reinvention myself. Though I guess I would say I like some reinventions more than others, if that makes any sense. It basically just comes down to if I think a reinvention was good. I've liked some parts of the New 52 and disliked others. I think we need to remember that just because a reinvention is hated it's not just due to nostalgia. I mean, that can be the case for some but not all.

[Myskin]

I don't have an issue with reinvention myself. Though I guess I would say I like some reinventions more than others, if that makes any sense. It basically just comes down to if I think a reinvention was good. I've liked some parts of the New 52 and disliked others. I think we need to remember that just because a reinvention is hated it's not just due to nostalgia. I mean, that can be the case for some but not all.

Of course, but I think that in Superman's and Wonder Woman's case (two of the major DC characters who had the greatest number of problems in reinventing themselves, and the ones with the most vocal fanbase IMHO; maybe it is not just a coincidence) the "nostalgic rants" are largely the majority. I mean, most of us look at Waid's Birthright with some love and envy for the Superman which could have created, but when it came out, the fans were rabid. Some sites, like Superman the ages, which at the beginning were not entirely against the reinvention, stopped reviewing the series after some issues because they became more and more outraged with some decisions.

[Auguste Dupin]

Of course, but I think that in Superman's and Wonder Woman's case (two of the major DC characters who had the greatest number of problems in reinventing themselves, and the ones with the most vocal fanbase IMHO; maybe it is not just a coincidence) the "nostalgic rants" are largely the majority. I mean, most of us look at Waid's Birthright with some love and envy for the Superman which could have created, but when it came out, the fans were rabid. Some sites, like Superman the ages, which at the beginning were not entirely against the reinvention, stopped reviewing the series after some issues because they became more and more outraged with some decisions.

Heh, I remember the polemic about the scene with the gun, or Lex being from Smallville, or the soul vision. Barely any one talks about it anymore, but yeah, people were ranting pretty hard at the time.
Of course the problem with non stop ranting is that at some point, the powers that be just stop listening. Especially when the same people wwho were ranting about something are now prasing how great it was and why can't we just go back to this....Like we're doing with Birthright.

[Agent Z]

Of course, but I think that in Superman's and Wonder Woman's case (two of the major DC characters who had the greatest number of problems in reinventing themselves, and the ones with the most vocal fanbase IMHO; maybe it is not just a coincidence) the "nostalgic rants" are largely the majority. I mean, most of us look at Waid's Birthright with some love and envy for the Superman which could have created, but when it came out, the fans were rabid. Some sites, like Superman the ages, which at the beginning were not entirely against the reinvention, stopped reviewing the series after some issues because they became more and more outraged with some decisions.

I understand what you're saying but at the same time I've seen "nostalgic rants" get trotted out many times in response to what seems like legitimate criticism. Some times people just resort to straw men. I guess no side is really guilt free.

[Blacksun]

Of course, but I think that in Superman's and Wonder Woman's case (two of the major DC characters who had the greatest number of problems in reinventing themselves, and the ones with the most vocal fanbase IMHO; maybe it is not just a coincidence) the "nostalgic rants" are largely the majority. I mean, most of us look at Waid's Birthright with some love and envy for the Superman which could have created, but when it came out, the fans were rabid. Some sites, like Superman the ages, which at the beginning were not entirely against the reinvention, stopped reviewing the series after some issues because they became more and more outraged with some decisions.

It's the old: "we didn't knew we had a good story, but now that we lost we valorize it". it can even happen with new 52 lol

[Myskin]

Of course the problem with non stop ranting is that at some point, the powers that be just stop listening.

Well said. One of the problems with Superman's latest years and countless reinventions doesn't come from DC not listening to the fans, but from DC listening to them too much.
From a certain point of view, the New52 was a small step forward, because at least some decisions (the no trunks rule) were taken and they stuck with them.

[Auguste Dupin]

Well said. One of the problems with Superman's latest years and countless reinventions doesn't come from DC not listening to the fans, but from DC listening to them too much.
From a certain point of view, the New52 was a small step forward, because at least some decisions (the no trunks rule) were taken and they stuck with them.

Yeah. Personally, I think the fanbase has a pretty big inferiority complex. It's so used to Superman being considered irrelevant that they resist as much as they can to any change, even the slightest, as if even admitting that this change wasn't that bad is admitting that yes, Superman is lame and irrelevant.
Had the fanbase accepted Birthright, maybe the New 52 would never have happened.

[DochaDocha]

Had the fanbase accepted Birthright, maybe the New 52 would never have happened.

So... yay?

[Auguste Dupin]

So... yay?

Depends who you're asking.
I wouldn't even be around for one thing.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Yeah. Personally, I think the fanbase has a pretty big inferiority complex. It's so used to Superman being considered irrelevant that they resist as much as they can to any change, even the slightest, as if even admitting that this change wasn't that bad is admitting that yes, Superman is lame and irrelevant.
Had the fanbase accepted Birthright, maybe the New 52 would never have happened.

I'm curious to see to what will lead the refusal of the New 52 Superman.