Michael Bailey nails the problem with Superman and DC comics: NEW COSTUME…SAME DRAMA…DEEPER SHOVEL

[Auguste Dupin]

Yep. I forgot many details but it wasn't a great plan. One major difference, though, is that in the original outline the fate of the world is really at stake, while in the published version it is just a set-up. Basically, while in the original version Supes fights to save people, in the final version of Birhright, he fights to save his own reputation. Oh, well...

Well, I gotta admit I'm no too keen on Superman having to save the world from a threat he brought in with him. Not on his first adventure, at least.

[Myskin]

Well, I gotta admit I'm no too keen on Superman having to save the world from a threat he brought in with him. Not on his first adventure, at least.

Like in Man of Steel?
Or Superman: Earth One?
Anyway, in Waid's outline it is a mix of TAS Brainiac and Eradicator, if I remember it well

[DochaDocha]

And that's why I REALLY got nervous when Rich Johnston said that DC was keeping attention to Forums in order to have a feedback about their comic books.

At least reading unreliable feedback is likely better than not trying to get any feedback at all. Amidst all of the bric a brac, you can find useful comments that were well-thought out and insightful, and I think those sort of things become just as self-evident as when a person has become the equivalent of a rant bot.

[Auguste Dupin]

Like in Man of Steel?
Or Superman: Earth One?
Anyway, in Waid's outline it is a mix of TAS Brainiac and Eradicator, if I remember it well

Pretty much.
I mean, it's not necessariy a deal breaker or anything, but I don't think it sends the right message to have Superman try to prevent his very existence to destroy Earth on his own existence (of course, it's never actually his fault but, y'know, symbolically speaking).

[Xon-Ur]

Mike Bailey is one of the most balanced, level-headed ,and patient fans I've ever come across. He was open to the New 52 when many (myself included) weren't, and he defended it numerous times. I've listened to his Superman and comic book podcasts and can tell you that Mike does not believe in the "If it's not "MY SUPERMAN, it's crap!" argument.

I'm in total agreement with him here. Everything he says is right on the money, IMO. While we don't know the direction this new story will take, that doesn't change the fact that both DC and their corporate masters at the WB simply don't get Superman. Go research the nightmarish journey to Superman Returns to see how little WB execs get or even like the character, and then do some research on Jim Lee's comments on Superman. Then read up on Rags Morales' comments about the very character he was drawing in Action. Then go and look at how much DC did for The Batman's 75th and how much they phoned in Superman's.

Batman may be DC/WB's cash cow, but Superman was there first and could easily be the flagship character he should be. Like Mike says in his analysis, though, it's not going to happen anytime soon, especially with the current regimes at WB/DCE.

[DeathFalcon182]

Bailey wants Superman to remain in his safe zone with cliched Superman stories which we've been getting for decades. I understand it but don't agree with it. The reasons we haven't had memorable runs with Superman in recent history (excluding some) is they all tell same safe zone cliched Superman stories. They are trying something bold with Superman and untill we get the results in our hand we can't say this is the worst or best thing that happened to Superman. Premise seems rather interesting and it'll be handled by 2 very competent writers for the most part. This, them getting out of the safe zone will bring attention and new readership to superman and get that "Superman is stale" image off the mind of comic readers and this might be the thing hardcore Superman fans enjoy if they're willing to give it a chance.

And i disagree with lot of you that Superman isn't a top dog of DC anymore or they don't care about him enough. They put Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, Greg Pak, Geoff Johns, Sott Snyder, Charles Soule on Superman titles in new 52 and also bringing Gene Luen Yeng post convergence . These are pretty Freaking big names in comics today. Scott Lobdell was what ruined Superman but aside from that new 52 has been generally good (not great).

Lastly big problem isn't that DC don't like Superman or don't know what to do with him. We wouldn't be having this discussion if we had gotten a big memorable run of Superman with a big name writer, but memorable run often come with writer going above and beyond telling us good and all sorts of weird different, bold, challenging stories (like morrison's or Snyder's run on Batman, Azzarello's run on Wonder Woman, Geoff Johns run on Green Lantern etc.). Going after simple cliched Superman stories isn't going to give us that, we need bold, challenging, over the top stories that sound crazy but in the end you enjoy the hell out of it.

[Cypher]

Oh, there's nothing wrong with Superman as a concept, certainly. He needs some work, but that's largely just to clean up around the edges.

Well, Jurgens did have an arc in the first year of the 52. And Perez started Superman off, so its not like DC didnt give that era of creators a shot. Perez had his hands tied of course, and that certainly impacted his quality. I still thought, all in all, it was solid work, though the villain was worthless beyond words. And as much as I adore the Triangle era, Im sad to say Jurgens' issues did not impress me. It felt extremely flat, like I was reading a twenty year old comic instead of something written today.

Honestly, I think there are two big issues with the 52. The first and most obvious is the un-even execution. You get a guy like Morrison, who most Superman fans love, and then you put Lobdell on the other book. Is anyone surprised when reviews are mixed? And of course, Idleson was a terrible editor who dragged the line down long before the reboot.

But then there's the fact that so much of the 52 pulled from pre-Crisis. The Kents are dead, Clark Kent is more of a disguise than it was in post-Crisis (though not as much of one as during pre-Crisis, so its a bit of a combination there) the power levels are very much Silver-Bronze Age, and with that has come a new round of "too powerful" complaints. And of course there's Clark's relationship with Lois, which has been rewound back to the beginning and DC isnt in a rush to tell that particular story again just yet, and that's a huge change from what we were used to. Unless you're familiar with the pre-Crisis stuff, the 52 isnt going to feel at all like Superman. I myself think that the foundation of the 52 is the strongest Superman has been in thirty years, but aside from Morrison and Pak the execution has been extremely unreliable (and they've had their bad issues too). Lobdell had great ideas but terrible execution, Diggle/Daniels was passable but forgettable, Jurgens was a let-down (to my utter disappointment) and Perez was forced to write blind. Snyder wrote a great supporting cast but a terribly un-skilled and clueless Superman. And Johns doesnt really get the nuance that makes Superman work.

We'll see what happens in TRUTH. If DC is serious about their editorial department backing off and letting creators do their own thing, these problems might work themselves out. I think the potential is there for this to be a glorious era for the character, he just needs to get the right creators and DC management need to stay out of the way.

Perez never did write Superman before, however he didnt even get to write the story he wanted because of editory. So much so he left.

Jurgens got to do absolutely nothing for the character, and was thrown in as filler to fix the editory forced atrocity left by Perez, both in attitude of the character and coming up with an explanation for that horrid costume. Then he got taken off.

New52 doesnt pull much from the old Superman. Other than not being married, and Kents dead. Like I said in the other thread, they've gotten rid of his physical appearance, his costume, his love interest, his job, his secret identity, his powers, his leadership abilities, theres barely anything left of him. And even given him an outsider mentality. Theres not much similar.

Post Crisis Superman acts much more like Superman. Other than superficial details, parents, and turning Lois into a more prominent character that women have grown to idolize and love. They also did new things while keeping the old personality. John Brynes Superman went back to the basics first more than anyone, to the square face, the personality, the round glasses, everything. And they still managed to come up and make completely new and interesting situations/characters with the entire world around him.

Thats how you approach the character without assassinating him. And it got better as it went on, unfortunately until the final stretch.

[Sacred Knight]

Eh, I'm a fan of Jurgen's post-Crisis Superman, but his New 52 run was really bad minus the art. And its rather cheap to always blame editorial when writing simply is not good. And his writing was not good there. Its as simple as that there.

And its not character assassination simply to tell a temporary story. You have to be brand new to comics or just incredible naïve to believe this post-Convergence direction will last for any considerable amount of time in as far as comics are concerned. This is no more character assassination now than it was when they gave Superman electric powers, a white and blue costume, then split him into two separate beings. Surprise surprise, it a year later he was back to normal. Its dishonest to even try to compare this to Byrne's reboot. That was establishing an intended long-lasting status quo. This is clearly not.

[Cypher]

Eh, I'm a fan of Jurgen's post-Crisis Superman, but his New 52 run was really bad minus the art. And its rather cheap to always blame editorial when writing simply is not good. And his writing was not good there. Its as simple as that there.

And its not character assassination simply to tell a temporary story. You have to be brand new to comics or just incredible naïve to believe this post-Convergence direction will last for any considerable amount of time in as far as comics are concerned. This is no more character assassination now than it was when they gave Superman electric powers, a white and blue costume, then split him into two separate beings. Surprise surprise, it a year later he was back to normal. Its dishonest to even try to compare this to Byrne's reboot. That was establishing an intended long-lasting status quo. This is clearly not.

Well heres the thing of why I can tolerate Superman Red/Blue; absolutely nothing changed about the way he handled himself and the outside world.

His powers and costumed looks are different, but in the book he was the same and his attitude. And in Justice League, there were some darn good stories utilizing Electric Superman. I personally liked the look, its still very Superman, and I liked powers.

I also like a little weirdness, so I'm not against all change. Sometimes, the weirder the better. When I first saw this change in New52 Superman, despite the costume, if you recall I was like "COOL" they finally brought back his proper physical look even if the costume is off. But with the outing it appears its another shun (again) of what makes Superman Superman out of not really getting the character or his personality, and telling another story which could be pointless.

If it turns out Lois didnt sell him out, and his identity really isnt out, then bravo.

[DochaDocha]

New52 doesnt pull much from the old Superman. Other than not being married, and Kents dead. Like I said in the other thread, they've gotten rid of his physical appearance, his costume, his love interest, his job, his secret identity, his powers, his leadership abilities, theres barely anything left of him. And even given him an outsider mentality. Theres not much similar.

Eh. I'll give you his costume and his love interest. The others, though, I think those are premature complaints. He left the Planet, but now he's back. His loss of his secret ID was something that wasn't even officially revealed, and we have no idea how "Truth" will play out. We don't know what's going to happen with the power loss. On the other hand, Post-Crisis which you praise nerfed Superman's powers across every book, and didn't make Superman a founding member of the Justice League (he turned down inclusion). Also, Post-Crisis had one of the most bizarre incarnations of main continuity Supes. I feel like your cherry picking problems with the New 52 and turning a blind eye to what appear to be similar problems in Post-Crisis.

I think the differences in personality between New 52 and Post-Crisis are totally overblown. In fact, these arguments feel all too much like a bunch of politics junkies saying why they're candidate is good, and the other guy's candidate sucks. Do so many comparisons between the two eras have to feel like watching a political attack ad on TV?

[Sacred Knight]

I guess that's the disconnect, I am not seeing a major change in attitude with the New 52 Superman. Unless the comparison is the 2000s Superman. But that's a good thing, in my book. The actual good versions of Superman? I think he's quite similar. A bit of a shorter fuse, that's all. I'm not seeing a lack of leadership abilities, or lack of enthusiasm in helping people, or lack of good nature toward the common man. And hey I'm with you on Electric Supes. I liked it just fine. I mean, Millennium was a hot mess, but it was almost over by then anyway. But I mean if you were to show me Electric Superman and jeans and t-shirt Superman, I'd be able to tell that both of them were Superman due to S, so I think the latter is just as much Superman as opposed to the former. In fact since the latter utilizes the classic color scheme and at least some of the classic powers, I'd say it's easier to see that as Superman than Electric.

[Cypher]

I guess that's the disconnect, I am not seeing a major change in attitude with the New 52 Superman. Unless the comparison is the 2000s Superman. But that's a good thing, in my book. The actual good versions of Superman? I think he's quite similar. A bit of a shorter fuse, that's all. I'm not seeing a lack of leadership abilities, or lack of enthusiasm in helping people, or lack of good nature toward the common man. And hey I'm with you on Electric Supes. I liked it just fine. I mean, Millennium was a hot mess, but it was almost over by then anyway. But I mean if you were to show me Electric Superman and jeans and t-shirt Superman, I'd be able to tell that both of them were Superman due to S, so I think the latter is just as much Superman as opposed to the former. In fact since the latter utilizes the classic color scheme and at least some of the classic powers, I'd say it's easier to see that as Superman than Electric.

Well the problem is they have told absolutely no good stories, for about 2/3 of the character current reboot at least. If they had writers who understood, Im sure they could manage better stories. Perez's awful run, Scott Lobdells... everything, Geof Johns essentially retarded strongman in Justice league, it goes on.

Eh. I'll give you his costume and his love interest. The others, though, I think those are premature complaints. He left the Planet, but now he's back. His loss of his secret ID was something that wasn't even officially revealed, and we have no idea how "Truth" will play out. We don't know what's going to happen with the power loss. On the other hand, Post-Crisis which you praise nerfed Superman's powers across every book, and didn't make Superman a founding member of the Justice League (he turned down inclusion). Also, Post-Crisis had one of the most bizarre incarnations of main continuity Supes. I feel like your cherry picking problems with the New 52 and turning a blind eye to what appear to be similar problems in Post-Crisis.

I think the differences in personality between New 52 and Post-Crisis are totally overblown. In fact, these arguments feel all too much like a bunch of politics junkies saying why they're candidate is good, and the other guy's candidate sucks. Do so many comparisons between the two eras have to feel like watching a political attack ad on TV?

Supermans powers went back to a more physical level, but the point is he still had plenty and plenty of powers. Comparable to the New52 Superman when powered. They essentially take that, and nerfed it even more now. To the point he cant even FLY. I mean what the hay? Superman still had powers in Post Crisis and could still yank around a planet if he had too. To say its the same as this depowering solar flare shtick is insane.

Thats cherry picking at all. To say a Superman who can yank around a planet when he needs to is the same as one who cant even fly is just grasping straws.

And no its not the same, or as interesting. Hence why New52 stories have yet to do anything for the character. Im not saying anything thats not true, its facts. Theyre just throwing everything up there and hoping it sticks.

[Sacred Knight]

Thing is, its not fact to say the New 52 hasn't done anything for the character. That's just an opinion. Free to have, but not a fact. There are plenty of people out there, quite a few right here, who disagree and believe it's done a lot of good overall for him compared to where he was at.

And post-Crisis Superman couldn't move a planet, at least, not for the bulk of it. He couldn't in Byrnes run, he couldn't in the Jurgens era. I don't think he could in the Loeb days but I was gone for that time (thankfully) so I can't speak That's not to say he didn't have a solid powerset, but he couldn't move planets. That was one of the aims of the relaunch, in fact, to not make his powers that "insane". He couldn't last in space anymore, he needed oxygen just like anyone else (though he could hold his breath a lot longer). His powers increased as time went on, yes, but I don't recall them ever getting back to the type of level where he could move planets like in the pre-Crisis days.

[DochaDocha]

Supermans powers went back to a more physical level, but the point is he still had plenty and plenty of powers. Comparable to the New52 Superman when powered. They essentially take that, and nerfed it even more now. To the point he cant even FLY. I mean what the hay? Superman still had powers in Post Crisis and could still yank around a planet if he had too. To say its the same as this depowering solar flare shtick is insane.

You said, "They've gotten rid of... his powers." I feel that's inaccurate to call the solar flare "Getting rid of his powers." That's adding a wrinkle to it, and Johns went out of his way to connect it to his pre-existing, classical powers, namely his heat vision. I'm not particularly thrilled by solar flare, but I think it's totally disingenuous to say it's "getting rid of his powers."

Thats cherry picking at all. To say a Superman who can yank around a planet when he needs to is the same as one who cant even fly is just grasping straws.

The idea that Superman's powers can be drained is not unique to New 52. It happened in various instances in Post Crisis. New 52 just gave him a way in which he could burn out his powers far more rapidly. In Post-Crisis, the idea that he was a solar battery was also the convention. New 52's Superman is still a guy who stores solar energy, giving himself super speed, flight, super strength, heat vision, x-ray vision, super durability, blah blah blah, and just like Post-Crisis, he didn't have an infinite store of these energies.

And no its not the same, or as interesting. Hence why New52 stories have yet to do anything for the character. Im not saying anything thats not true, its facts. Theyre just throwing everything up there and hoping it sticks.

The bold part means we're probably not going to come to an agreement, so I'll just say have a pleasant day.

[Cypher]

You said, "They've gotten rid of... his powers." I feel that's inaccurate to call the solar flare "Getting rid of his powers." That's adding a wrinkle to it, and Johns went out of his way to connect it to his pre-existing, classical powers, namely his heat vision. I'm not particularly thrilled by solar flare, but I think it's totally disingenuous to say it's "getting rid of his powers."



The idea that Superman's powers can be drained is not unique to New 52. It happened in various instances in Post Crisis. New 52 just gave him a way in which he could burn out his powers far more rapidly. In Post-Crisis, the idea that he was a solar battery was also the convention. New 52's Superman is still a guy who stores solar energy, giving himself super speed, flight, super strength, heat vision, x-ray vision, super durability, blah blah blah, and just like Post-Crisis, he didn't have an infinite store of these energies.



The bold part means we're probably not going to come to an agreement, so I'll just say have a pleasant day.

Well I say it because they have gotten rid of his powers. Almost completely, and more than once now.

Again, none of that is comparable to Post Crisis. And the reason for this is editory and DC running around with their head cut off.

Oh and good day, bud.

Thing is, its not fact to say the New 52 hasn't done anything for the character. That's just an opinion. Free to have, but not a fact. There are plenty of people out there, quite a few right here, who disagree and believe it's done a lot of good overall for him compared to where he was at.

And post-Crisis Superman couldn't move a planet, at least, not for the bulk of it. He couldn't in Byrnes run, he couldn't in the Jurgens era. I don't think he could in the Loeb days but I was gone for that time (thankfully) so I can't speak That's not to say he didn't have a solid powerset, but he couldn't move planets. That was one of the aims of the relaunch, in fact, to not make his powers that "insane". He couldn't last in space anymore, he needed oxygen just like anyone else (though he could hold his breath a lot longer). His powers increased as time went on, yes, but I don't recall them ever getting back to the type of level where he could move planets like in the pre-Crisis days.

Well Im sure it does something for people that like it, everyone likes different things. But what I mean in terms of a general success and going to the sales/impact DC wants (and fans) for the character, it hasnt done that.

And yeah he can pull a planet, I forgot what issue in justice league but he does pull a planet. And at OWAW.

Either way the point of depowering was to the point he got to be more physical whatevers not Silver Age levels at PC. Not breathing in space is no big deal when the guy can hold his breath for hours on end. Either way, pulling a planet, hanging out in space, flying, being able to stay in the sun, and all the physical things are not comparable to the Solar Flare. Those things arent enough to make people think Superman is depowered.

He's been at that power level in the GA, mid 80s, STAS, and is better known to be at that then Silver Age.