Would you support the Superhuman Registration Act?

[t hedge coke]

You are aware that those soldiers, under orders from their superior officer, tried to arrest him for speaking out against a law that wasn't even legal yet? They were going to lock him up (or worse) for saying he wouldn't join them if they started arresting vigilantes.

No, they didn't.

They drew arms on him when he began acting agitated and risky during a highly sensitive conversation. Which, in most countries, is the right of police or military. When they stood around him, armed, Rogers attempted to order them as if they were his subordinates and actively threatened them.

He threatened agents on their own ship doing their duty. And then he took a hostage, stole an aircraft, and started putting together an army that included known multiple murderers for the sake of a vigilante war against guys he knew he's be having dinner with again within a year.

Steve Rogers has allowed himself to actually be arrested before, and even allowed himself at one point to be arrested and thrown out of the country. Why? Because the arresting party was within its legal rights and it was the civil thing to do even if he didn't like it.

Nor, did Steve Rogers serve any time or, as I recall, even make it to trial. He was "assassinated" shortly after his arrest and then all was forgiven and he was made top cop of the planet as soon as he came back. The only consequences he faced were a couple hours in handcuffs, for starting a guerrilla war that resulted in death and destruction, rather than calm himself down and accept that he wasn't king god of SHIELD or above all laws.

[Agent Z]

No, they didn't.

They drew arms on him when he began acting agitated and risky during a highly sensitive conversation. Which, in most countries, is the right of police or military. When they stood around him, armed, Rogers attempted to order them as if they were his subordinates and actively threatened them.

He threatened agents on their own ship doing their duty. And then he took a hostage, stole an aircraft, and started putting together an army that included known multiple murderers for the sake of a vigilante war against guys he knew he's be having dinner with again within a year.

Steve Rogers has allowed himself to actually be arrested before, and even allowed himself at one point to be arrested and thrown out of the country. Why? Because the arresting party was within its legal rights and it was the civil thing to do even if he didn't like it.

Nor, did Steve Rogers serve any time or, as I recall, even make it to trial. He was "assassinated" shortly after his arrest and then all was forgiven and he was made top cop of the planet as soon as he came back. The only consequences he faced were a couple hours in handcuffs, for starting a guerrilla war that resulted in death and destruction, rather than calm himself down and accept that he wasn't king god of SHIELD or above all laws.

Hill flat out says that they can't have Steve speaking out against SHRA; it's clear that it has nothing to do with him being slightly agitated during a conversation. All he did was say he wasn't comfortable arresting his friends.

At least Rogers tried to face consequences for his actions. That's more than I can say for Hill.

[Mark]

The government already has you on a list. You have a social security card,a driver's license,an easily traceable online presence, and so on. There are so many things that track down our daily lives, thats it ridiculous.

But everyone is on that list. This would be a list specifically targeted to one group.

Going back to the earlier example, say I do suddenly have super powers and the government finds out. According to the registration act I'd have to sign up for training. My life gets put on hold for weeks or even months and what happens if I fail? During those months I'll be essentially drafted and as we saw drafted into a particularly brutal form of training. Naturally the government will not only want to train me, but they will want to know how I got my powers. So I'll be medically examined, interrogated, my life will be investigated so even if the list were to be kept secret the people in my work and family will find out about my powers. Since it's unlikely the government will allow me to use my own doctor my body will be poked and prodded by government doctors and what kind of doctor/patient confidentiality will they respect? Doc Samson gave Tony all the information he learned from Jen while she was his patient. (Jen being such a weak character did nothing to him, not even a complaint) Assuming I do make it through the training am I'm allowed to go back to my life I now go back to a life that has been effectively put on hold while all this was going on. My rent/mortgage, utilities, car payments if I have one, will they have been seen too? If not who do I go to? If I want to keep my powers to myself I can't really say what I've been up to.
So I go through all of that disruption and for what? So someone else can feel safer? What do I get out of it? Being a law abiding citizen hasn't really worked since my civil rights are violated the minute I step outside what is defined as 'normal'. I'm giving up a lot and the only thing I really might be getting out if it is the promise of government surveillance for the rest of my life and the probability that a SHIELD agent is going to show up at my place one day and tell me that I'm working for them now.
How is that freedom?

[Mark]

No, they didn't.

They drew arms on him when he began acting agitated and risky during a highly sensitive conversation. Which, in most countries, is the right of police or military. When they stood around him, armed, Rogers attempted to order them as if they were his subordinates and actively threatened them.

He threatened agents on their own ship doing their duty. And then he took a hostage, stole an aircraft, and started putting together an army that included known multiple murderers for the sake of a vigilante war against guys he knew he's be having dinner with again within a year.

Steve Rogers has allowed himself to actually be arrested before, and even allowed himself at one point to be arrested and thrown out of the country. Why? Because the arresting party was within its legal rights and it was the civil thing to do even if he didn't like it.

Nor, did Steve Rogers serve any time or, as I recall, even make it to trial. He was "assassinated" shortly after his arrest and then all was forgiven and he was made top cop of the planet as soon as he came back. The only consequences he faced were a couple hours in handcuffs, for starting a guerrilla war that resulted in death and destruction, rather than calm himself down and accept that he wasn't king god of SHIELD or above all laws.

Of all the hackneyed writing that was the hallmark of civil war that scene stands out as one of the worst.

[Luck911]

But everyone is on that list. This would be a list specifically targeted to one group.

Going back to the earlier example, say I do suddenly have super powers and the government finds out. According to the registration act I'd have to sign up for training. My life gets put on hold for weeks or even months and what happens if I fail? During those months I'll be essentially drafted and as we saw drafted into a particularly brutal form of training. Naturally the government will not only want to train me, but they will want to know how I got my powers. So I'll be medically examined, interrogated, my life will be investigated so even if the list were to be kept secret the people in my work and family will find out about my powers. Since it's unlikely the government will allow me to use my own doctor my body will be poked and prodded by government doctors and what kind of doctor/patient confidentiality will they respect? Doc Samson gave Tony all the information he learned from Jen while she was his patient. (Jen being such a weak character did nothing to him, not even a complaint) Assuming I do make it through the training am I'm allowed to go back to my life I now go back to a life that has been effectively put on hold while all this was going on. My rent/mortgage, utilities, car payments if I have one, will they have been seen too? If not who do I go to? If I want to keep my powers to myself I can't really say what I've been up to.
So I go through all of that disruption and for what? So someone else can feel safer? What do I get out of it? Being a law abiding citizen hasn't really worked since my civil rights are violated the minute I step outside what is defined as 'normal'. I'm giving up a lot and the only thing I really might be getting out if it is the promise of government surveillance for the rest of my life and the probability that a SHIELD agent is going to show up at my place one day and tell me that I'm working for them now.
How is that freedom?

This doesn't hold up. What if the Bruce Banner say what you just said.

-Your scenario has hulk running around free to reck stuff

-SHRA scenario has him working Reed/Stark to devolop an inhibitor.

It is not maybe people will be safer,People will be safer.OUR FREEDOMS are constantly ignored when it means safety of others it is why you can't take a bottle of water on airport and search like you are criminal at airport. Your right to privacy will NEVER out weight the safety of others

[Mark]

This doesn't hold up. What if the Bruce Banner say what you just said.

-Your scenario has hulk running around free to reck stuff

-SHRA scenario has him working Reed/Stark to devolop an inhibitor.

It is not maybe people will be safer,People will be safer.OUR FREEDOMS are constantly ignored when it means safety of others it is why you can't take a bottle of water on airport and search like you are criminal at airport. Your right to privacy will NEVER out weight the safety of others

My scenario has Bruce alone deciding what is best for his body and well being. You are going on the assumption that the Hulk will wreck stuff, that he's guilty before he does anything and that goes counter to all principles of the US legal system. You also assume that the powers that be would allow or even seek a cure instead of just having Reed and Stark shoot him into space. Or open him up on a direction table for weapons research.

I can choose not to fly. My right to privacy and freedom is protected so long as I observe a few basic rules that have more to do with respecting others than anything else. If I choose to do something like fly then I agree to loose a few of those in the name of safety and security, but if I choose not to fly then I don't give anything up. If however the government has the right to come into my life and decide that I have to not only register but submit to examination, training and possibly assignment and this is only because I am different from anyone else then at that point it's no longer my government because it's breaking the principles of it's own laws.

[Vanguard-01]

Nor, did Steve Rogers serve any time or, as I recall, even make it to trial. He was "assassinated" shortly after his arrest and then all was forgiven and he was made top cop of the planet as soon as he came back. The only consequences he faced were a couple hours in handcuffs, for starting a guerrilla war that resulted in death and destruction, rather than calm himself down and accept that he wasn't king god of SHIELD or above all laws.

And Stark and Hill didn't even spend any time in handcuffs for violating the Constitution and the Geneva Convention. They were registered. They had badges. They were "accountable." And they got away with crimes that were far more sever than roughing up a few trained soldiers.

Stark and Hill acted as if they were "above all laws" and they got away with it. Steve stood up for people's rights to not be arrested without due process and tortured and spent time in handcuffs. So much for "accountability."

[xcoijoi]

"...that he's guilty before he does anything..."

That is the bottom line. Safety vs Privacy or Freedom is a false dilemma.

[William300]

No, they didn't.

They drew arms on him when he began acting agitated and risky during a highly sensitive conversation. Which, in most countries, is the right of police or military. When they stood around him, armed, Rogers attempted to order them as if they were his subordinates and actively threatened them.

He threatened agents on their own ship doing their duty. And then he took a hostage, stole an aircraft, and started putting together an army that included known multiple murderers for the sake of a vigilante war against guys he knew he's be having dinner with again within a year.

Steve Rogers has allowed himself to actually be arrested before, and even allowed himself at one point to be arrested and thrown out of the country. Why? Because the arresting party was within its legal rights and it was the civil thing to do even if he didn't like it.

Nor, did Steve Rogers serve any time or, as I recall, even make it to trial. He was "assassinated" shortly after his arrest and then all was forgiven and he was made top cop of the planet as soon as he came back. The only consequences he faced were a couple hours in handcuffs, for starting a guerrilla war that resulted in death and destruction, rather than calm himself down and accept that he wasn't king god of SHIELD or above all laws.

No he didn't. All Rogers did was say that he wouldn't resort to hunting down other heroes.And that's when Maria ordered her men to take him down. Also he didn't threaten them not once, all he did was tell them to calm down. Also, they technically were his subordinates, Rogers had been a SHIELD agent for years at that point. Also, he didn't take a hostage, all he did was force the pilot to land, and then do you know what he did. He took the guy to lunch and let him go. Rogers didn't do anything wrong, he wasn't even resisting the law, all he said was that he wasn't going to fight the other heroes.

[Darth Phoenix]

This doesn't hold up.

It is not maybe people will be safer,People will be safer.OUR FREEDOMS are constantly ignored when it means safety of others it is why you can't take a bottle of water on airport and search like you are criminal at airport. Your right to privacy will NEVER out weight the safety of others

Ya Right and that is why SHIELD builds Setinals to keep us safe and trust the goverment while they round up the powered for the camps once the list is complete.

image.jpg

There is no reason to think the indrustral war complex and corperations would not Hijak this list and training program or let another Osborne lose on it.

[Luck911]

My scenario has Bruce alone deciding what is best for his body and well being. You are going on the assumption that the Hulk will wreck stuff, that he's guilty before he does anything and that goes counter to all principles of the US legal system. You also assume that the powers that be would allow or even seek a cure instead of just having Reed and Stark shoot him into space. Or open him up on a direction table for weapons research.

.

Here is difference between your point and my point. Your way assume nothing bad is going to happen. The reason this gone back forth because you guys have always assume the worse government is going abuse power folks because of super hero tropes.

My argument has always assume that government can abuse stuff. It has been about implement a plan does least amount screwing with people life while addressing one the question .

You said i would be assuming Banner that was dangerous before finding that He is actually is dangerous. Well how do you find out if Banner is dangerous? Any plan that allows Hulk to decide whether he should get help or not. Is a bad plan/system.Your plan lets Hulk go off with no system in place to stop him.SHRA has system that never lets Hulk go off or Lets off go off in a control environment. You would want to live a world where Cyclops and Rogue when first use their powers could kill people that's just silly to me.

[PiercedMonk]

Considering the Marvel Universe is a construct of several dozen different creative minds at any one given time, all of whom are dedicated to creating entertainment -- which relies on drama and conflict -- as opposed to any sort of logical consistency, you can't really use it as an example to judge how real world organizations would react to the sudden appearance of super-powered beings.

Sentinels for example. What twenty-first century, western government would entrust any aspect of it's peace keeping to a private corporation deploying autonomous robotic drones armed with lethal ordnance against their own citizens? The answer is none. We can't trust drone strikes in other parts of the world to differentiate between terrorist training camps and weddings -- well, we still use drone strikes despite civilian casualties, because we're monstrous in our complacency -- and there's no way anyone on either side of the political aisle wouldn't be protesting the use of sentinels in North America. We're already seeing what happens with the increasing militarization of the police in the U.S.; giant purple robots with death rays are a bridge too far.

There would be a lot of new and unique problems resulting from a sudden emergence of super powered beings, but most of the scenarios presented in the Marvel Universe are somewhat worst case.

[MyriVerse]

Hill flat out says that they can't have Steve speaking out against SHRA; it's clear that it has nothing to do with him being slightly agitated during a conversation. All he did was say he wasn't comfortable arresting his friends.

At least Rogers tried to face consequences for his actions. That's more than I can say for Hill.

Indeed, and even her government overlords did a faceplant because of her colossal screwup, but nothing ever became of her illegal actions.

[William300]

Indeed, and even her government overlords did a faceplant because of her colossal screwup, but nothing ever became of her illegal actions.

And nothing happened to Tony, Reed, and Pym when their "fake" Thor killed Goliath (pretty sure those experiments were illegal). Tony just chalked it up to being no different than a cop shooting a criminal, despite the fact that a clone/cyborg or a demigod is in no way a officer of the law, and that it was mentally unstable.

[Mark]

Here is difference between your point and my point. Your way assume nothing bad is going to happen. The reason this gone back forth because you guys have always assume the worse government is going abuse power folks because of super hero tropes.

My argument has always assume that government can abuse stuff. It has been about implement a plan does least amount screwing with people life while addressing one the question .

You said i would be assuming Banner that was dangerous before finding that He is actually is dangerous. Well how do you find out if Banner is dangerous? Any plan that allows Hulk to decide whether he should get help or not. Is a bad plan/system.Your plan lets Hulk go off with no system in place to stop him.SHRA has system that never lets Hulk go off or Lets off go off in a control environment. You would want to live a world where Cyclops and Rogue when first use their powers could kill people that's just silly to me.

I don't assume nothing will happen, but you can't prosecute and convict someone for something that hasn't happened. Until it actually happens -with criminal conspiracies being the exception- you have no legal or moral right to interfere with someones life. How do you find out if anything or anyone is dangerous? Lock them up before they do anything? Show me in the US constitution where it is ok to do that.