Do you buy the Iceman reveal?

[C-Dot]

I just find it weird you say "I can’t think of a single story out there that has some element of it" then leave out Cloud; a relationship you clearly know based on your detailed summary... surely that story, which is so obviously tackling issues of transsexualism, is "elements of it"?

Maybe because geeIdunno Bobby liked Carol Cloud, the only form that he and his team knew?

Did you read it?

Bobby was attracted to Carol Cloud, female form. Carol Cloud liked Moondragon but didn't know how to approach. Carol Cloud turned into Danny Cloud for her. And Bobby as well as the entire team was buggin out. Not an element of Bobby being gay when character clearly liked female form and was hurt by Cloud not being what he thought Cloud was. Went by appearances. It's even addressed in the book. Bobby even tells Cloud that he couldn't overlook the fact that Cloud had a male form. And Cloud wants to be friends and even go as far as being in Carol Cloud form for Bobby since Danny Cloud bothered him.

If anything, it speaks of Cloud more than Bobby..

[Kieran_Frost]

Maybe because geeIdunno Bobby liked Carol Cloud, the only form he and his team knew?

Did YOU read it?

Bobby was attracted to Carol Cloud, female form. Carol Cloud liked Moondragon but didn't know how to approach. Carol Cloud turned into Danny Cloud for her. And Bobby as well as the entire team was buggin out. Not an element of Bobby being gay when character clearly liked female form and was hurt by Cloud not being what he thought Cloud was. Went by appearances. It's even addressed in the book. Bobby even tells Cloud that he couldn't overlook the fact that Cloud had a male form. And Cloud wants to be friends and even go as far as being in Carol Cloud form for Bobby since Danny Cloud bothered him.

If anything, it speaks of Cloud more than Bobby.

Still just seems weird you didn't mention it in your list defending his heterosexual "conquests"; especially since you are amply versed on it... but oh well, guess it's just me. No harm, no foul. Oh, here's a link to the Iceman Appreciation thread, by the way: http://community.comicbookresources....n-Appreciation

[Mahes]

Alright everyone, let's keep things civil please and dial it down a bit.

[Timbales]

If adult Iceman comes out as gay, I hope he gets a good boyfriend. Probably won't happen though with the whole world ending and whatnot.

[Gray Lensman]

If adult Iceman comes out as gay, I hope he gets a good boyfriend. Probably won't happen though with the whole world ending and whatnot.

That, and the need to inject moar drama into relationships.

[C-Dot]

Still just seems weird you didn't mention it in your list defending his heterosexual "conquests"; especially since you are amply versed on it... but oh well, guess it's just me. Oh, here's a link to the Iceman Appreciation thread, by the way: http://community.comicbookresources....n-Appreciation

No I find it "weird" that out of all I said, you're trying really hard to make this into something. First you say "I just find it weird you say ‘I can’t think of a single story out there that has some element of it’ then leave out Cloud" (because Cloud didn’t have any element of Iceman being gay, that’s why) and now it's "you didn't mention it in your list defending his heterosexual 'conquests'". Make up your mind. Is it weird that I didn’t mention the Cloud story (who is a nebula btw) or is it weird that I didn’t name Cloud in…..wait.....

“Defending his heterosexual 'conquests'"?



You're really going to frame it like this, huh?

1. I don’t do alt narratives that I never stated and 2. romances aka loves aren't "conquests" to me. Let's again go with what I actually said: "'well, name one notable romance' and he’s had several." And Cloud is a different case since he flirted with Carol Cloud, not Danny Cloud, and admitted that he liked Carol Cloud only after the reveal. It didn’t go farther than that. It’s in the book. Compare with Darkstar, who Iceman was in complete love with but they were friends (she like him, but not like him like him). The names are there as examples of Iceman having interest beyond the flirting from Zelda to Kitty. They were not the end all list. But you’re sure trying to make it into something else entirely just like you tried to use the N.S./Prodigy thing when lo and behold, it's consistent with what I've been saying ever since I replied. In my own words. Not alt narrative mess and things never stated. Direct that mess somewhere else.

And again, I didn't hear you say anything about me leaving off Psylocke in Age of X either.

Ironically, that Cloud story pretty much show why one says that Iceman was straight in the stories when he only had interest in the female "Carol" form of Cloud and literally shows him not being attracted to the male "Danny" form. With Cloud taking female form to ease him. And it’s all actually stated in text and pictures.

[Gray Lensman]

Age of X hookups were all the result of a mindwhammy by someone who didn't take the time to notice details, omitting them is probably the right thing.

[Timbales]

If adult Iceman comes out as gay, I hope he gets a good boyfriend. Probably won't happen though with the whole world ending and whatnot.

Maybe he'll meet a nice guy and get a little place on Long Island, adopt some kids...

[Kieran_Frost]

No I find it "weird" that out of all I said, you're trying really hard to make this into something. First you say "I just find it weird you say ‘I can’t think of a single story out there that has some element of it’ then leave out Cloud" (because Cloud didn’t have any element of Iceman being gay, that’s why) and now it's "you didn't mention it in your list defending his heterosexual 'conquests'". Make up your mind. Is it weird that I didn’t mention the Cloud story (who is a nebula btw) or is it weird that I didn’t name Cloud in…..wait.....

My point was: you omitted it, completely (i.e. in neither option was it mentioned). Just seems strange. But on this I think it's best we agree to disagree.

1. I don’t do alt narratives that I never stated and 2. romances aka loves aren't "conquests" to me. Let's again go with what I actually said: "'well, name one notable romance' and he’s had several." And Cloud is a different case since he flirted with Carol Cloud, not Danny Cloud, and admitted that he liked Carol Cloud only after the reveal. It didn’t go farther than that. It’s in the book. Compare with Darkstar, who Iceman was in complete love with but they were friends (she like him, but not like him like him). The names are there as examples of Iceman having interest beyond the flirting from Zelda to Kitty. They were not the end all list. But you’re sure trying to make it into something else entirely just like you tried to use the N.S./Prodigy thing when lo and behold, it's consistent with what I've been saying ever since I replied. In my own words. Not alt narrative mess and things never stated. Direct that mess somewhere else.

The reason I brought up Prodigy is simple: in your opinion, how many times does a poster have to NOT support a character coming out before others start thinking there is a pattern? (that goes beyond "I just don't see this character as LGBT")

And again, I didn't hear you say anything about me leaving off Psylocke in Age of X either.

Do I really need to explain this??? Alternate reality vs reality. If Cloud was from a alt reality, I wouldn't have bought it up.

Ironically, that Cloud story pretty much show why one says that Iceman was straight in the stories when he only had interest in the female "Carol" form of Cloud and literally shows him not being attracted to the male "Danny" form. With Cloud taking female form to ease him. And it’s all actually stated in text and pictures.

You need to look up stories on LGBT repression. The Cloud story, read with that understanding, isn't so clear cut as "see, he didn't fancy the male one."

Age of X hookups were all the result of a mindwhammy by someone who didn't take the time to notice details, omitting them is probably the right thing.

THIS! I wouldn't list Namor in a list about Storm's former lovers either.

If adult Iceman comes out as gay, I hope he gets a good boyfriend. Probably won't happen though with the whole world ending and whatnot.

I think they'll give him an iconic boyfriend. Who that is, I don't know. Northstar is taken (and you don't break up the first LGBT marriage to then try and "represent" with an Iceman pairing). Benjamin, Anole and Prodigy are too young for adult Bobby (he's 30ish?). Maybe Daken? He's moving towards good; and he's a free agent (and the connection to X-23, AND Bendis has used him before). AND he's had his own solo series. Daken/Iceman could become quite iconic.

[coveredinbees]

northstar of the past for young bobby yessss

[Katai]

I would be on the side that the Cloud era does not say much of anything about Bobby's sexuality. If anything, it basically shows that Bobby is pretty transphobic, and their relationship deteriorated from that point on. I'll note that just because the whole acronym is LGBT doesn't mean everyone is quite as accepting as you would think. The face of the LGBT crowd is still primarily gay, white, cisgendered men, and everyone else is second class. Someone who is gay can very well be transphobic, and it's not exactly uncommon.

[Timbales]

I would be on the side that the Cloud era does not say much of anything about Bobby's sexuality. If anything, it basically shows that Bobby is pretty transphobic, and their relationship deteriorated from that point on. I'll note that just because the whole acronym is LGBT doesn't mean everyone is quite as accepting as you would think. The face of the LGBT crowd is still primarily gay, white, cisgendered men, and everyone else is second class. Someone who is gay can very well be transphobic, and it's not exactly uncommon.

I wouldn't call him transphobic.

How would you react of the person you were intimate with was suddenly the opposite gender?

[C-Dot]

My point was: you omitted it, completely (i.e. in neither option was it mentioned). Just seems strange. But on this I think it's best we agree to disagree.

R-e-a-d.

"The names are there as examples of Iceman having interest beyond the flirting from Zelda to Kitty."

I wrote that, did I flipping not? Stated multiple times now.

Judy Harmon, his first depicted girlfriend
Zelda Kurtzberg, who he dated as a teen too
Polaris, obviously
Darkstar, who he loved despite things not going into a relationship
Opal Tanaka, come on now.
Marge, depicted from the start of mini.
Annie, who he was intimate with.
Mystique, intimate relationship. A duh.
Kitty Pryde, relationship.

Cloud, sentient nebula who took forms, isn't part of the description. Iceman flirted with the female Carol form, didn't react well to male Danny form, and it didn’t go beyond flirting. Look at what I wrote again. Hence I didn't list it.

''From reading the stories and what I was exposed to, I have never thought of him as gay. I can’t think of a single story out there that has some element of it. "

Iceman in Cloud story WASN'T. Hence I didn't list it.

"And Cloud is a different case since he flirted with Carol Cloud, not Danny Cloud, and admitted that he liked Carol Cloud only after the reveal. It didn’t go farther than that."

And Cloud stated over and over that she took female form to ease Bobby. Hence I didn't list it.

What point do you not get? The "interest beyond flirting", "a different case", or "it didn't go farther than that"? Would I list Monica Rambeau as War Machine's love because he flirted with her? No. Would I if I included flirting with people and didn't have a thing beyond flirting depicted? Yes. But I'd sure state the story. Logic. Not hard to grasp.

Again, you decided to throw that in when there was absolutely no reason for it to be listed based on what I typed (if you actually read what I typed). Just like that "heterosexual conquests" nonsense. And it didn't cross my mind to add it because it had not a thing to do with the examples when all of them deal with, repeating, beyond flirting. How many times does this have to be reiterated ad nauseum?

"Strange"? Please.

The reason I brought up Prodigy is simple: in your opinion, how many times does a poster have to NOT support a character coming out before others start thinking there is a pattern? (that goes beyond "I just don't see this character as LGBT")

Yeah right.....

Or maybe, just maybe, the "pattern" is that....some of the people.....don't like retcons.

The whole "individuality" concept is a funny thing. You have people who think differently. With different opinions & viewpoints and different basis for opinions & viewpoints. And some people want to see what they want to see. Think that one is automatically this or that based on disagreement alone. Want to engage in non-existent "patternicity" without looking at the stated basis behind a consistent opinion (smell that irony). Or in some extremes....have preconceived notions or add something to disagreements that were never said or implied in an attempt to color someone as something else without actually looking at the statements. Without even going to the source.

I go by what's actually there. And if some don't dig a retcon or don't care for the N.S. Prodigy retcon or whatever, they have a right to feel that way. And unless you have something more from the source that matches the view you have, not every reason for not caring for it is what you or others think it is Mr. Telepath. Otherwise, you're doing baseless judging based on what YOU perceive and not actual fact.

Do I really need to explain this??? Alternate reality vs reality. If Cloud was from a alt reality, I wouldn't have bought it up.

If you asked me why I didn't despite a relationship shown and the other alt universe examples used, Gray Lensman's answer would be my answer. And the other examples fall into Iceman in other media.

Cloud didn't have that. Period. Hence no flipping need to bring it up in the examples I made.

You need to look up stories on LGBT repression. The Cloud story, read with that understanding, isn't so clear cut as "see, he didn't fancy the male one."

No. You need to actually look at the story itself and read it as it is. I'm sorry, but I don't play "what they really mean" and tack on something outside of story when there's text, dialogue, and story with the writer's intent there. And it wasn't like that at all. It's a comic book. And plot is a part of a comic book. They tell you what they're saying. They kinda sorta need to.

[C-Dot]

I would be on the side that the Cloud era does not say much of anything about Bobby's sexuality. If anything, it basically shows that Bobby is pretty transphobic, and their relationship deteriorated from that point on. I'll note that just because the whole acronym is LGBT doesn't mean everyone is quite as accepting as you would think. The face of the LGBT crowd is still primarily gay, white, cisgendered men, and everyone else is second class. Someone who is gay can very well be transphobic, and it's not exactly uncommon.

Bobby reacted to Cloud in the way that he did because he found out that the girl he flirted with had a male form. Iceman and his whole team found out when Cloud changed for Moondragon (and apparently loved her) and it was pure shock. His dialogue is one of a guy who went by appearances and was wrong. It's stated in those scenes (his own teammate says this). And when he talks to Cloud, he's clearly bugged by the fact that Cloud isn't what he thought ("Should I kiss you or shake your hand?"). And when they finally talk it out.....

"There is no way that I can let myself fall hard for you when I know that somewhere inside of you....is a guy".

(I can't believe some actually ignore this or the other art/dialogue in the sexuality deal.)

And Cloud repeatedly states why Bobby gets the Carol Cloud form.

"But I want us to be real close friends, Bobby. That's why I stay in female form when you're around. Because I know you're uncomfortable the other way around."

Cloud's doing it to ease him (stated), but Bobby still doesn't know who or what Cloud is (stated). And Cloud reiterates this when confronted with the truth about the two forms.

"I'll stay a girl all the time if you want!"

And even though things got messed up, they not only talked things out but it was Bobby who told Cloud to confront the truth.

[Gray Lensman]

You know, seeing as how we have two people reading different things into some old issues, whose to say that.....

maybe other people also saw things differently, and some of them are now writers?