New Avengers 33 *spoilers*

[jphamlore]

Here is my speculation as to what happened to Doom and the Beyonders end of New Avengers #33: The explosion wiped out much of white space and the Multiverse. I speculated weeks ago that Ultimate Reed Richards would have been smart and ruthless enough if he had enough data to attack the Beyonders in white space by exploiting white space being some sort of false vacuum. The right kind of energetic event could create a vaccum decay event or bubble that would spread and destroy space, in this case, white space. So in New Avengers #33, Doom's battle with the Beyonders I think released exactly the amount of energy on such a stupendous scale.

The formation of Battleworld may then actually be a cooperative event between Doom and the Beyonders, both of who may be in danger of fading into what is left of the chaos of white space. I have speculated that the barons of Battleworld are some sort of anomaly and may actually be the (few remaining) Beyonders in disguise.

[Biclopcicle]

My interpretation of New Avengers #29 is that Doom did will the time machine into existence from nothingness in the area of white space where Owen Reece had taken them. Molecule Man says, "Nothing now, but if you look backwards you'll see there was something. I lived here once. Some small bit of me called it home." Molecule Man later says, "I can show you the way, but I can't open the door."

Doom asserts, "Everyone has limits ... everyone but Doom." Doom then assembles the time machine out of nothingness and off he and Molecule Man go to the origin of Molecule Man, at which point there is am embellishment of what further happened at the beginning of New Avengers #33.

Now that I reread the passage in New Avengers #29, it is interesting that there seems to be some notion of time having passed in white space, as reflected in what Molecule Man describes to Doom about something having once been there that he and Doom have to look backwards for, presumably backwards in time. Perhaps this was a subtle hint of what Hickman intended to be the Beyonders' weakness, that they, the "white lords of wild space," are nonetheless bound by some notion of linear time, perhaps due to the very nature of white space, which I equate to wild space.

I think what happened there is that they were in the white space yes, but the white space is the space between universes, not the Beyonder realm ( see Where Hyperion ended up after he survived an incursion and where the mapmakers domain is and where aim sent the superadaptoids who became mapmakers). So doom and Reece went to a place that was previously occupied by a universe- a universe that died after one of the Molecule Men got killed there ("some small bit of me called it home").

The Beyonder realm is behind the fissure... It is unobservable, like the library of worlds. The white space is in fact observable, because AIM found and pulled Hyperion out of it

[Biclopcicle]

It's my understanding that Owen Reese of 616 "killing one of his past" counterparts -- fouling the Ivory Kings (The Beyonders?) plans is what started the incursion.

Then again, I could be wrong Are we to expect that will be reveal in the "Secret Wars III", arc?

Technically swIII already happened in some arc in Fantastic Four... This is just "secret wars"... 2015 edition lol

[Biclopcicle]

I'm also interested in the knife and that sign in Doom's holy of holys. It was only around the first Molecule man that was killed. Also how the swans were able to change in appearance and get powerful enough to kill a Molecule man. I hope that is explained.

I'm guessing 616 Owen Reece made a ton of special knives and they got distributed amongst the swans. I am also guessing doom taught the swans all the magic he knows. Further, we know that the swan that ended up in 616 had some technological augmentations. So it's very reasonable doom powered up the swans with his tech expertise as well

[Biclopcicle]

Yes, I do make assumptions like kill a Molecule Man, the Universe does die. But the proviso you point out wasn't obvious to me, even though reading it again should make sense. There seem to be things unstated in your rewriting the script. Okay, if a Molecule Man dies prematurely, his Universe doesn't die, but, why?

Sorry didn't mean to gloss over your question. I didn't answer it because I don't agree that the mm universe doesn't die. It does, but in a delayed fashion, so that mapmakers can map an earth where mm was killed. We don't know how each Reece is tied to his universe exctly. We just know that he is a "self destruct mechanism built into the fabric of the multiverse"

[jphamlore]

I think what happened there is that they were in the white space yes, but the white space is the space between universes, not the Beyonder realm ( see Where Hyperion ended up after he survived an incursion and where the mapmakers domain is and where aim sent the superadaptoids who became mapmakers). So doom and Reece went to a place that was previously occupied by a universe- a universe that died after one of the Molecule Men got killed there ("some small bit of me called it home").

The Beyonder realm is behind the fissure... It is unobservable, like the library of worlds. The white space is in fact observable, because AIM found and pulled Hyperion out of it

You interpretation may well be correct.

The art in New Avengers #33 does seem to my interpretation to show the Beyonders undergoing a phase transition out of something shown in white through the fissure into more normal space.

[Biclopcicle]

You interpretation may well be correct.

The art in New Avengers #33 does seem to my interpretation to show the Beyonders undergoing a phase transition out of something shown in white through the fissure into more normal space.

True, but if we can go off the original SW as a frame of reference, the fissure there was also white, but once Doom got inside the fissure it was crazy multicolor realm... "Wild space"

[VJ.]

Yes the text could support your theory. There is nothing to contradict it and there is a hint that it may be so. The only thing that contradicts it is the cast list page which isn't necessarily always perfect. As I say, I am not sure if that what Hickman was getting at because you can read it as an interchangeable turn of phrase or as a specific name for the apostates.

And the art also supports a difference between swans & black swan(s) - Doom's swans were wearing white - black swan (and the other black swans we saw earlier) were wearing black.

[Iron Maiden]

Not that we've not seen Doom do some pretty high powered magic before (he once recreated his fortress from a time cube in Dark Avengers after Morgana destroyed it) but I have to wonder if the Molecule Man's powers along with Doom's knowledge of how to construct a time platform is how it got created out of nothing since that is more like Owen's powers.

[marcbret1987]

For now we can't really speculate much on Doom's attempt, the only thing we know is that Victor had some grand plan but something clearly went wrong by seeing his reaction and that resulted in many universes dying. Whether that was because the Beyonders got pissed off or something else we don't know. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss those pesky Beyonders.

[Teste]

So, what I (think I) understood is:

1. Everything dies. The Multiverse would die, with all universes dying at the same time. This is what was meant to be; and it would be a result of the Beyonders making all Molecule Men to detonate at the same time. Nothing would survive this, and it would happen soon.

2. But, killing a Molecule Man makes his universe to die earlier. This foils the Beyonder's plans, since they wanted to destroy everything at the same time. It also explains why, as mentioned in New Avengers, even the universes in which Earth was destroyed in an incursion (which would have saved that universe) end up destroyed. The universe has been saved from being destroyed in the incursion, but it still dies because its Molecule Man is gone.

3. Killing a Molecule Man causes the early death of his universe. That's what has been causing the incursions, as explained here:

4. The Beyonders, having realized that something is messing with their plans, have created what eventually became the Map Makers to investigate. As mentioned by Doom in this issue, the Map Makers map worlds in which the Molecule Man has been killed in order to find the culprit. This is why, after Doom witnesses the first death of a Molecule Man, robots appear at the scene (as seen in this issue).

5. The interesting thing is, not all incursions are against a Map Maker world. Which means, not all incursions are against worlds in which a Molecule Man has died. So what causes an incursion to happen is not the fact that the Molecule Man of that universe has died; rather, as shown on the image above, it's the fact that universes have died sooner than they should have, and now the timeline is contracting. The interesting thing here is that, after the incursions began, even if Doom stopped killing Molecule Men the incursions would not have stopped - the timeline was already contracting anyway, which would cause incursions that would destroy more universes and thus make the timeline contract even more.

6. So, the Beyonders wanted to destroy everything at the same time. Killing Molecule Men is destroying one universe at a time, but it will lead to all universes being destroyed anyway. So, in the end, the outcome is the same: everything dies. I think that's the point of the discussion between Strange and Doom at the end of this issue, in which Strange asks what's the point, and Doom replies with, more or less, "If you could do all this and save at least something, would it be worth it?". Which hints that all universes will be destroyed in Doom's plan, but something will survive, unlike what would have happened in the Beyonder's plan.

And that is why Doom would now be the hero. In the Beyonder's plan, everything would be gone. In Doom's plan, almost everything would be gone, but one small thing will be saved. I think this small thing will be, at first, Battle World.

Assuming all the above is right (which really, is kind of a big guess :P), there is still something I don't get. When the Molecule Man talks to Doom about the results of the latter's work, he says that Doom will begin seeing the red and blue shifts to the incursions. What does he mean? That the incursions would not have gone red or blue without Doom, and that there is an advantage to those color shifts?

What is not very clear is what MM says about the red and blue shifts of the incursions, what does he mean by that?

Pretty much my question, too.

[Iron Maiden]

For now we can't really speculate much on Doom's attempt, the only thing we know is that Victor had some grand plan but something clearly went wrong by seeing his reaction and that resulted in many universes dying. Whether that was because the Beyonders got pissed off or something else we don't know. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss those pesky Beyonders.

We know at least the Child Beyonder from SW will be around from the covers upcoming issues. The idea of the Beyonders being linear Hickman no doubt picked up from this exchange with Reed. It will be interesting to see if the Child Beyonder will become Doom's main adversary since he was not to please with Doom when he met up with him again this second time, even though this was when Doom had mind swapped with a bystander at the scene of Terrax's cosmic burnout and his original body was destroyed.

[Iron Maiden]

Or maybe since he was a child Beyonder, he didn't understand the consequences?

[robreedwrites]

What issue is the Black Swan carrying around items needed to recreate her family?

She's revealed to be carrying something in New Avengers #2. We find out what it is in New Avengers #~26 when she talks to Stark in his cell.

[vitruvian]

2. But, killing a Molecule Man makes his universe to die earlier. This foils the Beyonder's plans, since they wanted to destroy everything at the same time. It also explains why, as mentioned in New Avengers, even the universes in which Earth was destroyed in an incursion (which would have saved that universe) end up destroyed. The universe has been saved from being destroyed in the incursion, but it still dies because its Molecule Man is gone.

Logically, this should depend on how the Earth is destroyed, and whether Molecule Man is present on it when it is. If it's simply blown up with antimatter or something, that should not be sufficient to actually kill the Molecule Man of that universe, since he can apparently only be killed by something like the cosmic daggers he made for Doom and the Black Swans. Owen has survived things like being molecularly dispersed by the Sentry, for example; by comparison, having the planet he's standing on just blown to smithereens isn't going to do it.