New Avengers 33 *spoilers*

[Biclopcicle]

Also, I just want to point out that "child unit" Beyonder was not an Elvis Beyonder but in fact a Steve Rogers Beyonder who then dyed and permed his hair. Because that's a key point.

[yet another]

Certainly, it seems bizarre to suppose beings as powerful as the Beyonders can't time travel given the ease and frequency with which time travel is accomplished in the Marvel Universe.

Even if they could not, why not just send their Mapmaker underlings or some other ones time traveling?

Unless they cannot even conceive of time as anything other than linear, i.e. are not aware and cannot be aware that time travel is possible. Much like humans cannot see UV-light. But we can of course build technology to handle that part...

On the other hand, Reed Richards once theorized in FF#288 that Baby Beyonder might be vulnerable to the power of a time paradox, to which Baby Beyonder responded that he didn't know and didn't want to risk it.

Doom can time travel but is definitely also vulnerable to the power of a time paradox. So I don't see how this has any bearing on the Beyonders' time travel deficiencies.

[Biclopcicle]

Yeah it seems that not only do they lack total omnipotence, but omniscience as well. For example, the library of worlds is not observable to them, even though they created it. It took them ten years to find out something was wrong with their doomsday plan

[MouserGrey]

What I don't understand is the magic knife that kills Reece. Is this knife just a magical construct that is supposed to represent killing a Molecule Man? Because you can't kill one. Sentry tried and Reece just comes back alive.

That looks like the same Wakandan knife used on Namor, and the words used about putting it where it is supposed to be sound like what Shuri and the dead bp's told t'challa. The knife T'Challa used was apparently an old heirloom. Could they somehow be the same knife? Some of you Hickman experts keep saying that all of his clues mean something, and that one really stuck out to me. I can't see how doom and t'challa's situations mirror each other and I can't reason how it could be the same knife. So why did Hickman so blatantly put that knife and such similar words in this issue of na?

[NeutralShade62]

Yes, that's another possibility: Doom is just wrong.

Certainly, it seems bizarre to suppose beings as powerful as the Beyonders can't time travel given the ease and frequency with which time travel is accomplished in the Marvel Universe.

On the other hand, Reed Richards once theorized in FF#288 that Baby Beyonder might be vulnerable to the power of a time paradox, to which Baby Beyonder responded that he didn't know and didn't want to risk it.

So Hickman is also mirroring that issue from Secret Wars II.

Yeah it seems to be more of a guess than anything and it might be wrong and not work, i mean i doubt it would have worked against the old beyonder (now called a child unit), since he pretty much always existed and didn't exactly have a past per se (i mean the whole point of that character was a supreme/superior being of a insanely bigger multiverse than the marvel one). It's abit of a mess at the moment, it would actually make more sense for doom to be wrong at this point in time.

Though the "them being afraid of their own past thing" makes way more sense than them not being able to time travel, at the very least i mean.

[JKtheMac]

Yes, that's another possibility: Doom is just wrong.

Certainly, it seems bizarre to suppose beings as powerful as the Beyonders can't time travel given the ease and frequency with which time travel is accomplished in the Marvel Universe.

On the other hand, Reed Richards once theorized in FF#288 that Baby Beyonder might be vulnerable to the power of a time paradox, to which Baby Beyonder responded that he didn't know and didn't want to risk it.

So Hickman is also mirroring that issue from Secret Wars II.

Yes, and in Secret Wars 2 (may it be condemed to the seventh ring of hell) The Beyonder, coming from a non linear reality was initially confused and confounded by things like time and value and any number of other non discrete things. It may be a blind spot and it may be a weakness but I suspect it isn't the vulnerability that Doom thinks it is.

[JKtheMac]

Having said all that, I still don't totally understand a lot of what's going on (and even how to ask about it, or if it can be answered at this point). - - So why are the MM/SM jumping from one universe to the next after they land on the earths WITHOUT MMs?

Not sure possibly to stop MM being killed, possibly to just wipe out threats to the plan like enhanced humans generally, possibly to harvest something else. A popular theory is to build battleworld but that seems to fly in the face of the cosmic horror, which requires uncaring antagonists.

- Why must Doom remain in secret about all of this?

To achieve his aim of millions of MM dead he must build a religion, and if the truth about that religion was discovered the plan would fail.

- Why does destroying the other Earth in an incursion save the the rest of that Earth's universe? It seemed like a separate situation than just "the MM is on that Earth" or something.

It doesn’t really, there is still an inevitable constriction and multiversal stress. Reed noticed this at the beginning. Once you experience an incursion more will follow and they will increase in frequency.

Universes without an Earth still get swept up in the overall contraction.

- Just as a reminder, how and why did the Builders play into this, in terms of their wanting to destroy Earth 616 in Infinity?

They were misguided, they thought that if the issue was focused on Earth then destroying all of them would somehow save the multiverse. We now know it would kill all of the MM and probably end the multiverse there and then

And most importantly: Between the various factions (Black Priests, Builders, Illuminati, Cabal, "good" - as in faithful to Doom - Swans, "bad" Swans), whose actions end up furthering the Beyonders plans, and whose end up helping Doom, knowingly or not? A table or something might be nice

I am not sure that really matters any more. Factions acted on incomplete information.

[yet another]

To achieve his aim of millions of MM dead he must build a religion, and if the truth about that religion was discovered the plan would fail.

You'd think he could have gone with Doombots as well if all he needed was more hands to wield the MM-killing knifes.

One Doombot builds two new, two builds four and so on. Should be far faster than getting followers to his cult, I don't think there were that many Black Swans.

[JKtheMac]

To me, the death of the first MM caused that MM's universe to die a bit early, which decreased the total number of universes left in the system, and as many have said to this point, as you continue to remove those universes, the remaining ones start smashing into each other, and you end up with the incursions.

I read this as the same as the diagram Reed shows us early on. The fuse is all of the molecule men dying and taking the Multiverse with him. The diagram shows the muliverse converging on the Heat death of the universe.

Time contraction is the contraction of the entirety of time from the beginning to the end. Big-Bang to heat death. If a MM dies that time span gets slightly smaller. That is billions of years in the future now become billions minus a small amount of time. If you kill enough (and that means millions) it will noticably contract the length of the fuse because that time span is inside real time.

But not all universes are starting to contract in time and once more of them contact they are causing stress amongst their neighbors who are still the original length. The nature of the stress is Molecule Man. He dies in all of the universes at a fixed moment because he is one man. Start killing individuals and you uncouple universes from that fixed point. and things fall apart. Incursions happen

[JKtheMac]

You'd think he could have gone with Doombots as well if all he needed was more hands to wield the MM-killing knifes.

One Doombot builds two new, two builds four and so on. Should be far faster than getting followers to his cult, I don't think there were that many Black Swans.

There is an implictaion that using multiversal versions of the same person is pretty efficient. It grows exponentially, one Swan can convert many Swans.

[VJ.]

You'd think he could have gone with Doombots as well if all he needed was more hands to wield the MM-killing knifes.

One Doombot builds two new, two builds four and so on. Should be far faster than getting followers to his cult, I don't think there were that many Black Swans.

Swans & Black Swans were different - Swans are followers of his cult; black swans are those who were his followers but are 'apostates' after seeing reece in his inner chamber.

[JKtheMac]

Swans & Black Swans were different - Swans are followers of his cult; black swans are those who were his followers but are 'apostates' after seeing reece in his inner chamber.

I'm not sure if this is true. It makes sense but the headshot page at the beginning refers to them all as Black Swans.

[VJ.]

I'm not sure if this is true. It makes sense but the headshot page at the beginning refers to them all as Black Swans.

I'm sure that they are were just called "swans" at first (I'm at work - comic is at home) & that the term "black swan" came up after Strange asked about it. I seem to remember it that way at least.

[Moose100]

Owen Reese asked when we're they going to kill billions when we're things going to start smashing together. The incursions are a result of Dooms work with the exact mechanism unexplained for now.

Bingo. This is what I thought. All hasn't been revealed. Doom is the failing bomb squad cop by appearances

[Roundman]

Yeah it seems that not only do they lack total omnipotence, but omniscience as well. For example, the library of worlds is not observable to them, even though they created it. It took them ten years to find out something was wrong with their doomsday plan

That seemed to be a convenient loophole for Doom to exploit. You'd think that the Beyonders would know if someone was using their library, or at least that they'd check there after awhile if they weren't having success detecting the "Great Destroyer" in regular space.