New Avengers 33 *spoilers*

[Roundman]

The Marvel Multiverse is not an infinite variety of possible universes. This isn't physics speculation hour this is comic book time travel related alternate universes. Most of the alternative universes seem to be created by time travel tinkering.

I disagree with you here. There are far more universes at play than only those created due to time travel hijinx. Throughout the Hickman run, characters have repeatedly referred to infinite universes. The various What If? series further establish that the Marvel Multiverse assumes some sort of variation of the infinite multiverse theme.

I would hazard a guess that either all alternative universes have an Earth or an analogue Earth, or universes without even an analogue Earth still have a Molecule Man

I think that we have to make that assumption. I can go with it, because it's a comic book story, but such stretches are part of the reason this explanation as it has been presented so far has been unsatisfying.

[jackolover]

Assuming that motive is what counts, I guess we'll need to agree to disagree as I don't think Swan's motive is to destroy simply for the sake of it. I think she's trying to stay on a world long enough to bring back her family. I took it that the Swans were angry when they saw what Doom built (a time machine, or some temporal paradox) which would imply that he's always had the ability to bring back their respective families via time travel. Our Black Swan then repurposed the myth of Rabum Alal to suit her needs (recruiting heroes to deal with the Incursions while she tries to find a way to bring her family back and get out of the game).

Only time will tell, I guess.

What issue does Black Swan admit she's doing this to save her family?

[JKtheMac]

The "Coming resurrection" is curious. The statement was made by Doom to the Swans. It could mean that it is the Battleworld and subsequent Nu-Earth, or, it could refer to the pink smoking building Doom throws at the Beyonders, lifting out of its crevice.

No the statement was made behind the back of the Swans. He doesn’t want them to see that. He doesn’t want them to realise he is working towards a possible future for the multiverse.

[Roundman]

Wasn't there a shortcoming in the Beyonders, that they couldn't leave their safe haven and enter a universe unless they were wearing a special suit of armor? That suggests the Beyonders are vulnerable. They aren't invincible.

I think they've been presented as being limited outside of the "wildspace," and they somehow lured the cosmic entities there in order to defeat them. For whatever reason, the Beyonders have been shown as willing to charge into the regular universe at times to attack beings like the Multiversal Avengers. I guess they are confident that they can crush lesser entities even in regular space (despite the fact the the Multiversal Avengers apparently disabled or destroyed two Beyonders in an attack). I can't tell from the last panel if the entities streaming out of the wildspace to attack Doom were Beyonders themselves, or if they were Mapmakers. If those were Beyonders, then I guess they didn't learn their lesson the first time that lesser creatures could still be dangerous.

Putting that aside, presumably the Beyonders would not be vulnerable in the Library, as it existed outside of real space.

[exiled]

As to why the beyonders can't find doom? He is undetected in there. They would literally had to go back and search there. And they have been busy killing extracts. Maybe that is their backup plan? Kill the extracts?

[Biclopcicle]

I certainly didn't hold to "many Reece's dying for one Universe to die". I don't know anybody here that has suggested that.

There are posters on this thread who believe that killing Reece does not kill his own universe, that It only builds up to incursions

[JKtheMac]

There are posters on this thread who believe that killing Reece does not kill his own universe, that It only builds up to incursions

Yep <hand waves> thats me and a few others.

[AcesX1X]

the problem of course is that reece has no involvement to the story except for this reveal. you could replace him with literally anyone and it wouldn't make a difference.

[Biclopcicle]

the problem of course is that reece has no involvement to the story except for this reveal. you could replace him with literally anyone and it wouldn't make a difference.

Except that from F4 #20 he was billed as a threat to the entire universe, that he almost took down Beyonder in SW II, and his origin has been tied to the Beyonders realm since some time in the 80s

[jackolover]

No the statement was made behind the back of the Swans. He doesn’t want them to see that. He doesn’t want them to realise he is working towards a possible future for the multiverse.

Okay. I thought it was the other.

It does make it sound like Doom has set up " something" that will extend past the Event Horizon, which is the Final destruction.

[JKtheMac]

Let’s stop quoting the “I'll take my universe with me.” Out of context and put it all together:

MM: They lit my fuse, and now I -- all of me -- am terminal. And when I die… I'll take my universe with me. And they want to see what happens when we all go off at once.

D: But that isn't what occurred. You died and nothing happened.

MM: Sure it did. But that me--one of an infinite number of me’s -- died early. First, in fact. If we're going to thwart their plan, you're going to have to kill a whole lot more of me... And soon.

D: I'm not even sure I find any of this believable.

MM: You will. When you reach a high enough threshold, you'll start seeing some real results from your work. The blue and red shift of incursions.

D: How long do you have until you reach your final terminal state?

MM: Twenty-five years.

MMs first sentence is all about the bomb that the Beyonders have set the fuse for. When that bomb explodes then the universes go bang and as he is in all of them they all go bang. He isn’t referring to if he dies prematurely he is referring to the ‘infinite me’.

Doom rightly points out that he just saw a MM die and the universe didn’t go bang.

MM uses a BUT. He says the reason the universe didn’t go bang was because he died early. He then goes on to explain how killing lots more of him will result in incursions.

He doesn’t say if I die prematurely my universe will die.

[exiled]

Yep <hand waves> thats me and a few others.

Me too! Your entire statement was correct about the red and blue shifts. People are reading into what is said instead of taking the text at face value.

[JKtheMac]

Okay. I thought it was the other.

It does make it sound like Doom has set up " something" that will extend past the Event Horizon, which is the Final destruction.

Yes it does.

[marcbret1987]

the problem of course is that reece has no involvement to the story except for this reveal. you could replace him with literally anyone and it wouldn't make a difference.

I guess one could argue he is used for historical reasons, given his involvement in the original Secret Wars and his relation to the original Beyonder. But other than that, you are quite right.

[Roundman]

As to why the beyonders can't find doom? He is undetected in there. They would literally had to go back and search there. And they have been busy killing extracts. Maybe that is their backup plan? Kill the extracts?

I just have a hard time accepting that (1) the Beyonders wouldn't have some sort of surveillance in this structure that would let them know if someone entered it and, if they didn't have surveillance,(2) that no Beyonder thought to check it out during the years of searching for the Great Destroyer and the Swans. I'll have to double check, but didn't one of the earlier issues show the Sidera Maris or Mapmakers see Swans fleeing into a Library door? That should have tipped them off right there.

Again, it's a comic and I understand that we just have to set aside some amount of doubt. I just feel like the NA run has been so well crafted up to the past few issues that, until now, we haven't had to fall back on the old "it's a comic, so I need to suspend my belief" mechanism. I had very high expectations for the resolution of the Incursion plot and its mysteries, and what we have so far is unsatisfying to me.