New Avengers 33 *spoilers*

[AcesX1X]

Except that from F4 #20 he was billed as a threat to the entire universe, that he almost took down Beyonder in SW II, and his origin has been tied to the Beyonders realm since some time in the 80s

sure he fits a purpose in regards to nostalgia - if you want to take it there.

but in terms of story, he's had completely zero involvement until now. rachel summers could stand in for him and it wouldn't make a difference. or howard the duck.

[Roundman]

If you want to say its obvious to you what the Beyonders want to achieve from your ideas about sci-fi Physics, perhaps you are right, but I would not say its obvious to everyone. I just want you to realise that many of the points you are making are in no way mainstream physics as you seem to make them sound, such as saying "it has been known for years". Sorry for the long post.

Great post, and very interesting. Thanks, and best of luck with your research!

[jphamlore]

Ok, stop here for a moment, I am a PhD in Physics and what you are saying is not accurate and implies a whole lot of speculative sci-fi physics. Lets go step by step:

1. As far as we know, a singularity is formed as a result of a gravitational collapse e.g. a black hole formation. A singularity is a point of spacetime that in classical physics (including general relativity) is a point of infinite curvature of spacetime. An infinity is commonly argued to be unphysical, so one could say its a limitation of the theory. Given that the singularity is commonly behind an event horizon that is somewhat okay as you can't observe it with your naked eye, meaning you have to enter the black hole, and stay there as you can't exit ( as a joke, Hawking likened the event horizon of a black hole to a cover of a Porn magazine, shielding us from the content inside ). So no, its not as simple as observing a singularity and then you can just unlock the secrets of space and time. However, the existence of a singularity in the centre of a black hole implies that we physicists need to go one step further and find a theory which merges Quantum Field Theory and General Relativity: Quantum Gravity, the holy grail. Unfortunately, that hasn't been found as yet, and I couldn't assure anybody that finding it means that we will have control of space of time and unlock all of nature's secrets.

2. The idea of coming back to the early moments of the universe is because the early moments of the universe have the key to questions like the future of our universe or the dominance of matter over antimatter among other stuff. Unfortunately, research into singularities is so far only theoretical because we don't have any black hole nearby and so far we don't seem to be able to form micro-black holes at the Large Hadron Collider (I know because that is essentially my research).

3. The last sentence about interstellar is not entirely accurate. In that awesome movie, the idea is that by being able to take some data inside the black hole, the daughter of the main guy is able to crack the Quantum Theory of Gravity, which in the movie gives them the power to do all sorts of cool stuff. Again, pure speculation. First of all, because even if we had a black hole nearby as far as we know its not possible to send information outside, that only happens in the movie through the aid of a supposedly super-advanced civilization which gives a hand from the future. And in the tesseract (the object inside the black hole) the idea is that time acts just like a spatial dimension, shown by the infinitely repeated room at different moments in the life of the main guy. Besides, extra dimensions are purely

If you want to say its obvious to you what the Beyonders want to achieve from your ideas about sci-fi Physics, perhaps you are right, but I would not say its obvious to everyone. I just want you to realise that many of the points you are making are in no way mainstream physics as you seem to make them sound, such as saying "it has been known for years". Sorry for the long post.

Read my post and look at the links from:

http://community.comicbookresources....l=1#post977784

I'm not saying this is how physics is. I'm saying this is what Hickman has been saying about his combination of mythology and physics for some time. From the very first Avengers issues Hickman has been writing lines such as:

"“There was nothing. Followed by everything. Swirling, burning, specks of creation that circled life-giving suns. And then…we raced to the light” and "“There was everything. Followed by nothing. A swirling gaping maw that swallowed life-giving suns. And then…we cowered in the night."

And then in New Avengers #30, Hank Pym says, "I found something worse. White lords of wild space, questing for the last light ..."

That there is some sort of enlightenment that occurs between the death of a universe and the beginning of the next is a long established comics trope. See for example Oeming's Thor Ragnarok arc.

The mangling of actual physics is kind of essential to the very idea of mainstream comics such as Marvel or DC's.

[Iron Maiden]

Except that from F4 #20 he was billed as a threat to the entire universe, that he almost took down Beyonder in SW II, and his origin has been tied to the Beyonders realm since some time in the 80s

Exactly, that was establisheded in FF #320 where Englehart's story showed who we know as the Child Beyonder and Owen being incomplete halves of a Cosmic Cube.

[MyriVerse]

Do you see to earths colliding? Cause I sure as hell don't, but I do know where I see it happening.

The Incursion begins before the collision. Obviously. At the end of Avengers #44, from one Earth, we see another Earth in the sky. That's the Incursion.

[jackolover]

Let’s stop quoting the “I'll take my universe with me.” Out of context and put it all together:



MMs first sentence is all about the bomb that the Beyonders have set the fuse for. When that bomb explodes then the universes go bang and as he is in all of them they all go bang. He isn’t referring to if he dies prematurely he is referring to the ‘infinite me’.

Doom rightly points out that he just saw a MM die and the universe didn’t go bang.

MM uses a BUT. He says the reason the universe didn’t go bang was because he died early. He then goes on to explain how killing lots more of him will result in incursions.

He doesn’t say if I die prematurely my universe will die.

Yes, I do make assumptions like kill a Molecule Man, the Universe does die. But the proviso you point out wasn't obvious to me, even though reading it again should make sense. There seem to be things unstated in your rewriting the script. Okay, if a Molecule Man dies prematurely, his Universe doesn't die, but, why?

[marcbret1987]

I just have a hard time accepting that (1) the Beyonders wouldn't have some sort of surveillance in this structure that would let them know if someone entered it and, if they didn't have surveillance,(2) that no Beyonder thought to check it out during the years of searching for the Great Destroyer and the Swans. I'll have to double check, but didn't one of the earlier issues show the Sidera Maris or Mapmakers see Swans fleeing into a Library door? That should have tipped them off right there.

Again, it's a comic and I understand that we just have to set aside some amount of doubt. I just feel like the NA run has been so well crafted up to the past few issues that, until now, we haven't had to fall back on the old "it's a comic, so I need to suspend my belief" mechanism. I had very high expectations for the resolution of the Incursion plot and its mysteries, and what we have so far is unsatisfying to me.

I quite agree with that, and actually I think you are quite right about a Swan fleeing into the Library, need to check it out too!

[Biclopcicle]

sure he fits a purpose in regards to nostalgia - if you want to take it there.

but in terms of story, he's had completely zero involvement until now. rachel summers could stand in for him and it wouldn't make a difference. or howard the duck.

I agree, nostalgia. Which is fine with me

[AcesX1X]

Exactly, that was extablisheded in FF #320 where Englehart's story showed who we know as the Child Beyonder and Owen being incomplete halves of a Cosmic Cube.

lazy on hickman's part and the story is still paper-thin as a result. the writer has a responsibility to the present, and sticking Reece haphazardly into a 33 issue run where he's had zero involvement is a weakness.

and no, him babbling in a cell for a panel a few months ago doesn't cut it, nor does some story that happened before most of us were even born.

[celeherald]

sure he fits a purpose in regards to nostalgia - if you want to take it there.

but in terms of story, he's had completely zero involvement until now. rachel summers could stand in for him and it wouldn't make a difference. or howard the duck.

But that is the purpose, to tie it to what happened before. I'm not sure why you think that's bad especially considering Secret Wars is now upon us.

[marcbret1987]

Great post, and very interesting. Thanks, and best of luck with your research!

Thanks a lot! Much appreciated! Actually, I now realise I sent the post without finishing the last point about extra dimensions! Anyway, its a minor point

[MyriVerse]

I disagree with you here. There are far more universes at play than only those created due to time travel hijinx. Throughout the Hickman run, characters have repeatedly referred to infinite universes. The various What If? series further establish that the Marvel Multiverse assumes some sort of variation of the infinite multiverse theme.



I think that we have to make that assumption. I can go with it, because it's a comic book story, but such stretches are part of the reason this explanation as it has been presented so far has been unsatisfying.

Exactly. Every suggestion that there are not an infinite number of universes has always been a case of extremely horrible PIS.

[AcesX1X]

But that is the purpose, to tie it to what happened before. I'm not sure why you think that's bad especially considering Secret Wars is now upon us.

not bad...weak, yes. but not bad.

[marcbret1987]

Read my post and look at the links from:

http://community.comicbookresources....l=1#post977784

I'm not saying this is how physics is. I'm saying this is what Hickman has been saying about his combination of mythology and physics for some time. From the very first Avengers issues Hickman has been writing lines such as:

"“There was nothing. Followed by everything. Swirling, burning, specks of creation that circled life-giving suns. And then…we raced to the light” and "“There was everything. Followed by nothing. A swirling gaping maw that swallowed life-giving suns. And then…we cowered in the night."

And then in New Avengers #30, Hank Pym says, "I found something worse. White lords of wild space, questing for the last light ..."

That there is some sort of enlightenment that occurs between the death of a universe and the beginning of the next is a long established comics trope. See for example Oeming's Thor Ragnarok arc.

The mangling of actual physics is kind of essential to the very idea of mainstream comics such as Marvel or DC's.

Thanks a lot for the link to your earlier post! Indeed very interesting. And I agree that sci-fi Physics is a big part of today's comics and sci-fi movies/series. Just thought that you were making statements about actual physics developments which are not quite there yet. Believe me, I would love more than anything to see in my lifetime the development of Quantum Gravity and conclusive studies about the nature of singularities, but even with this you would be hard-pressed to find a physicist who would say that this would lead to the cool stuff shown in the end of Interstellar.

[Biclopcicle]

Yes, I do make assumptions like kill a Molecule Man, the Universe does die. But the proviso you point out wasn't obvious to me, even though reading it again should make sense. There seem to things unstated in your rewriting the script. Okay, if a Molecule Man dies prematurely, his Universe doesn't die, but, why?

That's not even an assumption, really. Its right there in print. Not only that, the explanation of kill one MM -->kill one universe fits in with what we already know -- a) the early death of a universe created a contraction which started the incursions b) the "birth" of Rabum Alal caused the early death of the alternate universe. By killing alternate Reece, Doom "became" Rabum Alal and brought about the early end of that universe. That process, after over 1000 MM died, brought about the first incursion 7 years later.

the "But" is that the first killed MM's universe ended early, as opposed to simultaneously with the other MMs 25 years in the future.

To believe that killing MM is not directly tied with the early death of a universe, but only to incursions through some unknown mechanism, is adding an unnecessary step into the equation