New Avengers 33 *spoilers*

[jphamlore]

Another great aspect of this depiction of Doom is that due to the virus spread by the Beyonders to create Mapmakers, it may have been impossible for Doom to use his Doombots, since they might have been infected and betray him to the Beyonders. Thus he had to use organic life as his agents.

The Doombots were becoming an incredibly tired piece of Doom stories.

[exiled]

Another great aspect of this depiction of Doom is that due to the virus spread by the Beyonders to create Mapmakers, it may have been impossible for Doom to use his Doombots, since they might have been infected and betray him to the Beyonders. Thus he had to use organic life as his agents.

The Doombots were becoming an incredibly tired piece of Doom stories.

Great point!

[marcbret1987]

In regards to the universes.... killing a molecule man brings the universes closer together. There is a real subtle story reference. The molecule man says to doom when will he kill enough of him for universes to collide "together". He says it 3 times and Doom is shown killing a molecule man the first two times it is said and the third and incursion happens. It is subtle but pretty cool. Also the molecule man is a singular being spread out throughout the multiverse. He is one person with infinite parts. Every tume he dies there is less of him which contracts the multiverse. Take one part away you shorten the connection which brings the universes closer together.

Is that the case? Because I don't remember this being mentioned at all. If that is indeed the explanation its a bit... obscure. Killing MM brings the universes ever so slightly closer due to what? I don't really follow the logic. You say its due to him being an infinite being. To me, that essentially sounds like comic book logic I must say.

Well, about him saying it three times, Doom's account is that he spent seven years killing MM, so he obviously took out more than three.

[exiled]

Is that the case? Because I don't remember this being mentioned at all. If that is indeed the explanation its a bit... obscure. Killing MM brings the universes ever so slightly closer due to what? I don't really follow the logic. You say its due to him being an infinite being. To me, that essentially sounds like comic book logic I must say.

Well, about him saying it three times, Doom's account is that he spent seven years killing MM, so he obviously took out more than three.

Yes. It's obscure. The 3 times is a story telling device. But it's there. If you go back and read it makes sense. Comic book logic? It's all comic book logic. Remember. ...the silver surfer flies on a surf board in space.

[marcbret1987]

Yes. It's obscure. The 3 times is a story telling device. But it's there. If you go back and read it makes sense. Comic book logic? It's all comic book logic. Remember. ...the silver surfer flies on a surf board in space.

Fair enough Anyway, as I said, I am far from convinced. What moment/conversation makes you think that this is the case? I mean, what led you to thinking that killing MM brings universes together? Looking again at NA#33 I just can't see it, subtle or not.

[Shai-Hulud]

Another great aspect of this depiction of Doom is that due to the virus spread by the Beyonders to create Mapmakers, it may have been impossible for Doom to use his Doombots, since they might have been infected and betray him to the Beyonders. Thus he had to use organic life as his agents.

The Doombots were becoming an incredibly tired piece of Doom stories.

My impression was that even though the script said "artificial intelligence," that what was meant was only the AIM super-adaptoids on account of their connection to cosmic cube energy. I seem to recall that the mapmakers are all former adaptoids?

By that reasoning, if Ultron or Jocasta were to jump universes, they would be unaffected.

Further on that point, we have the case of the City A.I. constructed by Reed 1610. If what we saw in Avengers #44 was typical, he flies City through the incursion zone and launches his "World Worm" singularity missile at his target earth. But his City A.I. has never become infected, or it would have presumably ceased to work with him.

[exiled]

Fair enough Anyway, as I said, I am far from convinced. What moment/conversation makes you think that this is the case? I mean, what led you to thinking that killing MM brings universes together? Looking again at NA#33 I just can't see it, subtle or not.

The molecule man is one guy made up of near infinite parts. In an earlier issue MM rambles there is "less of him". He explains to doom that once he hits a certain threshold of killing the MM the incursions will start. Every killing takes a piece of the Molecule man away. Like memories. The page where doom is killing the Molecule man the mm is talking about clouds as he is dying. So that is another piece gone. The the MM says to Doom "in 5 years you have killed only a thousand of me. When are we going to get to billions? When are things going to start smashing together. ..together. ...together." Look at the framing sequence when he says together. It is telling us that each time a molecule man is killed things are coming together.

[exiled]

The molecule man is one guy made up of near infinite parts. In an earlier issue MM rambles there is "less of him". He explains to doom that once he hits a certain threshold of killing the MM the incursions will start. Every killing takes a piece of the Molecule man away. Like memories. The page where doom is killing the Molecule man the mm is talking about clouds as he is dying. So that is another piece gone. The the MM says to Doom "in 5 years you have killed only a thousand of me. When are we going to get to billions? When are things going to start smashing together. ..together. ...together." Look at the framing sequence when he says together. It is telling us that each time a molecule man is killed things are coming together.

When something becomes less it becomes smaller. He is losing pieces of himself that are all connected. Pieces that are powerful enough to destroy the multiverse. So I don't think it's out of the question removing pieces of the Molecule man would have some effect on the multiverse.

[jphamlore]

My impression was that even though the script said "artificial intelligence," that what was meant was only the AIM super-adaptoids on account of their connection to cosmic cube energy. I seem to recall that the mapmakers are all former adaptoids?

By that reasoning, if Ultron or Jocasta were to jump universes, they would be unaffected.

Further on that point, we have the case of the City A.I. constructed by Reed 1610. If what we saw in Avengers #44 was typical, he flies City through the incursion zone and launches his "World Worm" singularity missile at his target earth. But his City A.I. has never become infected, or it would have presumably ceased to work with him.

Ultimate Reed might have lucked out. Actually in Avengers #41 the protocol, at least before the destruction of almost all of the hundreds of thousands of universes left, was for Ultimate Reed to be cut off from communication with the City A.I., let alone taking the City A.I. with him when he crossed over between universes to plant his bomb:

City A.I.: "Before the incursion wall prevents communication, I'd like to make a query."

Ultron may also be an exception because his thought engrams I believe are actually those of his creator Hank Pym.

[Shai-Hulud]

Ultimate Reed might have lucked out.

The death of the Beyonders themselves, however, wouldn't necessarily remove the virus from the fabric of spacetime. City flew through and is so far unaffected, right? But there was an annual where we specifically saw adaptoids becoming mapmakers on account of the cosmic cube connection.

Either Hickman should have been more specific in #44, or Reed 1610 will be in for a nasty surprise as City's priorities change in Secret Wars #1.

Or we'll never know unless Hickman specifies. I'd also like to ask him if the Beyonders can't time travel at all, or if they simply have a taboo about crossing their own timeline (perhaps akin to the Time Lord rule that you don't travel to Gallifrey's past).

[jackolover]

Sorry didn't mean to gloss over your question. I didn't answer it because I don't agree that the mm universe doesn't die. It does, but in a delayed fashion, so that mapmakers can map an earth where mm was killed. We don't know how each Reece is tied to his universe exctly. We just know that he is a "self destruct mechanism built into the fabric of the multiverse"

That's something MM States, though. All he could be is just a time bomb, and he could be lying about the Universe dying if he dies, thing. In fact, much like Black Swan, MM could be lying about everything too, and just manipulated Doom to start Incursions for the Beyonders sake. There is no evidence killing an MM kills a Universe. Doom has made the Black Swans destroy Earths to start Incursions, because Black Swans set off planet busters as we saw in NA #1.

This book is INSANE with subtlety! I love it...check this out!
I am trying one last time to get people to understand that killing a MM does NOT mean a Universe will die...slowly or otherwise!
Here we go:
1) FACT the first incursion happened 7 years after the first MM death.
2) FACT the Beyonders were not aware anything was happening until 10 years.
3) now here is the kicker....on the page where it shows Owen killing the first MM it also shows the residual of the corpse being examined by the Beyonders? How is that possible if the MM universe dies because he does? The beyonders found out 10 years after the first death! The first Incursion was 7 years! obviously post # 235 was right. Killing a MM does not cause the early death or death of a universe!

And here is another cool part. When Owen drew that symbol before he killed the first MM he said he was "Sending a message". A few pages later you see Doom and Owen walking in the library. AS they are walking underneath a part of the Library the same symbol appeared. The panel earlier the symbol was not there. So THAT is the symbol of Rabum Aala. And the message was meant for the beyonders. If the universe died out with the death of the MM the beyonders would not have inspected the corpse remains or gotten the message of Rabum Alal. I think I nailed it this time guys. If you disagree use the text. Because that is all I am using.

Well that certainly fits with my understanding, as well, and I'm coming to it from a different direction.

[jackolover]

She's revealed to be carrying something in New Avengers #2. We find out what it is in New Avengers #~26 when she talks to Stark in his cell.

Thanks robreed.

PS Yes, I see the diagrams of what BS has inside of her and that its DNA a and Irom Man claims its her loved ones and she wants a safe haven to regenerate them. Why hasn't she done so since her release from her cell?

Another thing. How do you store inanimate objects in a humanoids body? One punch and the contents shatter and leak out into the body. And Black Panther hit her already.

[Biclopcicle]

That's something MM States, though. All he could be is just a time bomb, and he could be lying about the Universe dying if he dies, thing. In fact, much like Black Swan, MM could be lying about everything too, and just manipulated Doom to start Incursions for the Beyonders sake. There is no evidence killing an MM kills a Universe. Doom has made the Black Swans destroy Earths to start Incursions, because Black Swans set off planet busters as we saw in NA #1.

Except the first incursion happened before the first swan joined Doom. Killing molecule men does start incursions. The major debate here has been the mechanism. If you take what Reece says in NA33 and what Richards says in NA2 at face value, then the early death of a universe caused by a MM death is what caused the incursions. No earths were blown up prior to the first incursion.

Unless you want to assume the Doom isn't being honest in recounting his history as Rabum Alal, then anything could be causing the incursions. For plot and storytelling reasons, that's just too convoluted and I have to reject that

[jackolover]

Except the first incursion happened before the first swan joined Doom. Killing molecule men does start incursions. The major debate here has been the mechanism. If you take what Reece says in NA33 and what Richards says in NA2 at face value, then the early death of a universe cause by a MM death is what caused the incursions. No earths were blown up prior to the first incursion.

Unless you want to assume that Doom isn't being honest in recounting his history as Rabum Alal, then anything could be causing the incursions. For plot and storytelling reasons, that's just too convoluted and I have to reject that

The doom lying thing could be possible too.

But otherwise it does present a problem that Incursions happened before Swans were employed.

[Shai-Hulud]

Another thing. How do you store inanimate objects in a humanoids body? One punch and the contents shatter and leak out into the body. And Black Panther hit her already.

A tiny metal vial could be both shock resistant and small enough to store genetic samples. With advanced enough tech, genetic material sufficient for cloning purposes might be contained and preserved in something as small as a microdot.