New Avengers 33 *spoilers*

[exiled]

I think Hickman was referencing a more eastern tradition when he was writing Molecule Man dialogue. It was more about the nature of reality as observed by an enlightened individual. The idea that the observer is intertwined with the thing being observed with reference to the media used to perceive it, and that observations of observations are a road towards enlightenment are not very occidental.

Thief: Will you remember me when you come into your kingdom?
Jesus: This day you will be with me in paradise.

Hyperion: Will you wait for me in Valhalla?
Thor: Brother I will race you there.

I am paraphrasing a little. But it sounds really similar. Especially since Thor is a god.

[ZNOP]

The issue includes a retcon about the cube you are referring to. In its evolved form as Kubik it turns up to aid Molecule Man with The Shaper of Worlds in tow. These ideas are all tied together in Fantastic Four #319. This is where the Cosmic Cubes were most clearly discussed and explained back in the late 80s as being linked to The Beyonders. I am not sure if the idea that other Beyonders existed was even on the table until F4 319.

Being that my comic collection goes back quite a ways -- I can safely say I have and read those issues (and have little problem with that retcon or those that followed). However, there's a hell of a lot more to the history of the Cosmic Cube(s) -- most which predates "Fantastic Four #319" by several years.

[vitruvian]

I think Hickman was referencing a more eastern tradition when he was writing Molecule Man dialogue. It was more about the nature of reality as observed by an enlightened individual. The idea that the observer is intertwined with the thing being observed with reference to the media used to perceive it, and that observations of observations are a road towards enlightenment are not very occidental.

This seems more likely, considering that Molecule Man is in no way the Creator, having only existed as MM for about 13 years out of about 14 billion years of the universe's existence.

[JKtheMac]

Being that my comic collection goes back quite a ways -- I can safely say I have and read those issues (and have little problem with that retcon or those that followed). However, there's a hell of a lot more to the history of the Cosmic Cube(s) -- most which predates "Fantastic Four #319" by several years.

To some extent we are talking past each other. I am trying to pin down what Hickman is referencing I am not trying to reach back to the origins of those references. I don't disagree with a thing you are saying, I am just pointing specifically at somthing I suspect is directly relevant to the current Issue of New Avengers.

All along here and elsewhere you will find me suggesting Hickman will ignore and hand wave out of existence F4 319 because it has problems. Now I suspect he is more directly retconning those ideas, with full reference to the ideas contained therein.

[JKtheMac]

Thief: Will you remember me when you come into your kingdom?
Jesus: This day you will be with me in paradise.

Hyperion: Will you wait for me in Valhalla?
Thor: Brother I will race you there.

I am paraphrasing a little. But it sounds really similar. Especially since Thor is a god.

Yes, when you first mentioned this I could appreciate the parrellel. I just think Molecule Man is talking as if he had an enlightening experience along the lines of Buddhist teachings when he seems to make reference to detachment based meditation techniques.

The reference to being the light as it strikes a petal, is a moment within the thought process of Owen as a child. He is struck by a realisation that the part of himself he identified as self is not the reasoning part of his mind but the observational process and the observation of that observation. He had achieved an insight into his being.

Another Owen makes reference to watching clouds as a child, which is a common analogy used to describe the process of Detached Observation, which is again a Buddist technique.

[JKtheMac]

Especially since Thor is a god.

Indeed Thor in Marvel is very often written with a Messianic approach. That is not always my favourite Thor but it can't be denied. The same approach is often used with Superman.

[ZNOP]

To some extent we are talking past each other. I am trying to pin down what Hickman is referencing I am not trying to reach back to the origins of those references. I don't disagree with a thing you are saying, I am just pointing specifically at somthing I suspect is directly relevant to the current Issue of New Avengers.

All along here and elsewhere you will find me suggesting Hickman will ignore and hand wave out of existence F4 319 because it has problems. Now I suspect he is more directly retconning those ideas, with full reference to the ideas contained therein.

OK, fair enough... I guess only time will tell what Hickman is thinking.

[JKtheMac]

For reference and to save everyone reaching for the issue again:

Mm: are you ready?

Mm2: do you remember <snip> when we were younger. Seven, I think... <snip> There was a beautiful white flower growing beside a large oak tree. <snip> I am not that smell, or the birds chirping… or any other sound of the Forest. I am the light perfectly hitting the flower. Bits of dust heated by the sun, swimming in the air above it. <snip> Everything is loss.

(snipped because I dont want to paste the whole transcript.)

So in that we have a child under a tree which suggests the young Buddah by location. We have distracting senses that needed to be ignored which sounds like an analogy of the medatitive process of quieting the mind. We have a mention of the Forest, which could be a reference to 'The Thai Forest Tradition' which places emphasis on experience and has greatly influenced the western world. We have the light hitting the flower which for me brings to mind the Hindu 'Chakra Petals' as meditaion focus. And, we have molecules in Brownian motion with the dust in heat, which forshadows the power of the molecule Man.

Thats quite a lot for a couple of sentances and of course it may not all be intentional. On the other hand I wouldn't put it past Hickman.

Edit: I was going to mention 'Everything is loss' being an echo of 'Life is Suffering' but to add the word 'everything' would be stretching Buddhist teaching. It can be found in The Bible however. Philippians 3:8 ESV.

2nd Edit: in the more scholarly translations of The Bible the quote is "I have accepted the loss of everything" which is not really the same.

[exiled]

Yes, when you first mentioned this I could appreciate the parrellel. I just think Molecule Man is talking as if he had an enlightening experience along the lines of Buddhist teachings when he seems to make reference to detachment based meditation techniques.

The reference to being the light as it strikes a petal, is a moment within the thought process of Owen as a child. He is struck by a realisation that the part of himself he identified as self is not the reasoning part of his mind but the observational process and the observation of that observation. He had achieved an insight into his being.

Another Owen makes reference to watching clouds as a child, which is a common analogy used to describe the process of Detached Observation, which is again a Buddist technique.

Wow! Really interesting. I had no idea! Thanks.

[ZNOP]

Rolls eyes at how quickly this discussion has devolved from "Science Fantasy" to "Metaphysics"...

[exiled]

Rolls eyes at how quickly this discussion has devolved from "Science Fantasy" to "Metaphysics"...

Hey...it IS part of the story....

[JKtheMac]

Rolls eyes at how quickly this discussion has devolved from "Science Fantasy" to "Metaphysics"...

Science Fantasy always ends up going there, even if only briefly. I wouldn't call it a devolution, if anything the references bring depth to the story by refecting different sides of the lived experience. Even a materialist with a belief system based on secular humanism has to admit that the people of the world sometimes base their actions and motives on things outside of their philosophy. Even while not acknowledging those things.

Take for example the Dune novels. They constantly reference religion but never totally move away from secular ideas. Instead they just stretch the realm of possibility.

[vitruvian]

Science Fantasy always ends up going there, even if only briefly. I wouldn't call it a devolution, if anything the references bring depth to the story by refecting different sides of the lived experience. Even a materialist with a belief system based on secular humanism has to admit that the people of the world sometimes base their actions and motives on things outside of their philosophy. Even while not acknowledging those things.

Take for example the Dune novels. They constantly reference religion but never totally move away from secular ideas. Instead they just stretch the realm of possibility.

Hmmmm.... I thought Dune veered full throttle into the unabashedly supernatural, it just showed that sometimes being a messiah doesn't turn out the way you'd like.

Another example of this sort of storytelling everybody should read if they haven't is Zelazny's Lord of Light. Which is comics-relevant because Kirby actually did some art for the story...

[Rosebunse]

Hmmmm.... I thought Dune veered full throttle into the unabashedly supernatural, it just showed that sometimes being a messiah doesn't turn out the way you'd like.

Another example of this sort of storytelling everybody should read if they haven't is Zelazny's Lord of Light. Which is comics-relevant because Kirby actually did some art for the story...

Dune went full fantasy at points, and yes, I think the core of the story is that being the most powerful person in the universe can really, really suck.

[jphamlore]

Rolls eyes at how quickly this discussion has devolved from "Science Fantasy" to "Metaphysics"...

In Hickman's New Avengers #33, Molecule Man states Doom is the only one able to understand what he is about to say precisely because Doom is a man both of science and magic.