New Avengers 33 *spoilers*

[ZNOP]

What does science and magic have in common with Buddhist teaching and or organized (organise) religion?

[exiled]

What does science and magic have in common with Buddhist teaching and or organized (organise) religion?

Oh stop. It's in the story. We don't need a debate about this.

[jackolover]

More than that, we know now that the Incursions didn't start until over a thousand Molecule Men had been assassinated. Whether the mechanism by which their deaths kicked off the Incursions was by their universes going with them and therefore creating a void into which further universes started to crash (so similar to Reed's explanation at the beginning of many issues of this title), or if those universes persisted and their deaths caused the Incursions more directly by some unknown mechanism, we can't be absolutely certain, but neither the Big (Ending) Bang desired by the Beyonders nor the current situation with the Incursions could have come to pass prior to FF #20 with the creation of Molecule Man (Men).

Thanks. That at least sets a minimum.

[Shaggy]

So there was a poster here who said that they had already gotten their hands on Secret Wars #1 and that it would explain many of the loose ends from New Avengers #33. I've now read Secret Wars #1 and it explains nothing.

[Biclopcicle]

So there was a poster here who said that they had already gotten their hands on Secret Wars #1 and that it would explain many of the loose ends from New Avengers #33. I've now read Secret Wars #1 and it explains nothing.

yep. Oh well. Hickman said there would be some things regarding the premise that don't get explained until #4 even...

[exiled]

It was clear to me that there is much more to be explained and the whole molecule man incursion story is far from over.

[Magik Man]

Anyone else think the girl from the sentinel camp is a version of Illyana Rasputin, maybe from Age of Apocalypse? Her hair has bangs and the "jumped away as far as I could" comment could be hints.

[Abe]

Anyone else think the girl from the sentinel camp is a version of Illyana Rasputin, maybe from Age of Apocalypse? Her hair has bangs and the "jumped away as far as I could" comment could be hints.

Quite interesting. At first she reminded me the orphan young Ororo in Cairo - her eyes - but the hair didn't fit - blond and not white yet (+ the bangs !). Didn't think about Illyana. They way she submits to Doom in order to survive could echo the time Ilyana finally submited for a time to Belasco -( learning to fight in order to avoid anymbody to hurt her anymore. The library of worlds would be like Limbo, where Doom could teach her some magic (their powers maybe can't be only explained by science ?). Anyway the two Black Swans whose we know a part of the story are both orphans. Is it a recruiting condition ?

Hope Hickman will give more answers about the Doom religion and its dogmas ("the glory of the coming resurrection" : Battleword or the New Marvel Universe ?).

About Doom's godhood : could the reference to the Emperor God of Dune be more than a word play ? in the Herbert's book the son of Paul Muadib choose to live a three thousand years life as a hybrid sandworm in order to teach a lesson to humanity - it's the Golden Path, a strategy to prevent humanity's ultimate destruction. (... thinking about it : really beautifull yellow/orange landscape made of giant beings body on the inner side of Battleworld - and this place is quite intriguing !)

Doom faithfull followers know that the purpose of his reign can't be only the concretisation of a fantasy of ultimate autocracy : I think there is a Bast prophecy about that - as there is also one concerning Tchalla and Reed facing the end of everything together in the last issues of Hickman's FF run.

Battleword could be just a step in his plans to rebuild : destroyer, dreamer, is all the reality already his whim or is it just a part of the coup he attended once more against the pretentions of the beyonders ?

[NewCanaanite]

Sorry to revive this old thread, but I finally got around to reading TRO and I had some questions:

1. When/how did the Molecule Man learn that he was a bomb? When/how did he learn that he was set to go off in 25 years?
2. When/how did Molecule Man learn about the library of worlds?
3. I don't understand how Manifold fits into things. MM says the he created the Manifolds in all the different universes to help the Black Swans find all the different Molecule Men. How exactly does the Manifold help them accomplish this task?

[jackolover]

Sorry to revive this old thread, but I finally got around to reading TRO and I had some questions:

1. When/how did the Molecule Man learn that he was a bomb? When/how did he learn that he was set to go off in 25 years?
2. When/how did Molecule Man learn about the library of worlds?
3. I don't understand how Manifold fits into things. MM says the he created the Manifolds in all the different universes to help the Black Swans find all the different Molecule Men. How exactly does the Manifold help them accomplish this task?

Manifold is a teleporter, but he has a finite use, thus why Black Swan killed him in New Avengers #1.

As to how Reese knew his explosive purpose, he is omnipotent like a Beyonder. Unless the Beyonders purposely mind wiped him, Reese was always aware of his duty to detonate at some particular moment in time, just that we the reader were never made aware of it.

None of this is explained straight out in the books, but we see a whole bundle of Molecule Men were thrown at Beyonders and killed them, so, Reese was particularly lethal, as depicted in New Avengers.

[NewCanaanite]

Manifold is a teleporter, but he has a finite use, thus why Black Swan killed him in New Avengers #1.

As to how Reese knew his explosive purpose, he is omnipotent like a Beyonder. Unless the Beyonders purposely mind wiped him, Reese was always aware of his duty to detonate at some particular moment in time, just that we the reader were never made aware of it.

None of this is explained straight out in the books, but we see a whole bundle of Molecule Men were thrown at Beyonders and killed them, so, Reese was particularly lethal, as depicted in New Avengers.

Okay, but Nightcrawler and Illyana Rasputin are teleporters too. Couldn't a Black Swan use either of them to find a Molecule Man? I don't understand how having teleportation powers means you'll be useful in locating Reese.

If Molecule Man has known about the library of worlds and his role as a bomb this whole time, why didn't he ever tell anyone about it until now?

[jackolover]

Okay, but Nightcrawler and Illyana Rasputin are teleporters too. Couldn't a Black Swan use either of them to find a Molecule Man? I don't understand how having teleportation powers means you'll be useful in locating Reese.

If Molecule Man has known about the library of worlds and his role as a bomb this whole time, why didn't he ever tell anyone about it until now?

Oh, yeah sure. "Hi, I'm Molecule Man. I'm here to blow up this universe, and my dupes will blow up the Multiverse". That would go down well. He kept it quiet so nobody would disturb the process the Beyonders put in him. Then, when it was all collapsing anyway, there was no need to keep it secret.

Progress

Incursions started
Doom finds out and gets Molecule Man
Molecule Man says "this started when he told Doom Reese was a bomb"
Doom goes to start of activity and starts killing Reeses
The end.

As to the other teleporters, obviously they aren't multiverse in nature, while Nightmask was designed and created in each reality for just this task and the Black Swans knew that too.

[NewCanaanite]

Oh, yeah sure. "Hi, I'm Molecule Man. I'm here to blow up this universe, and my dupes will blow up the Multiverse". That would go down well. He kept it quiet so nobody would disturb the process the Beyonders put in him. Then, when it was all collapsing anyway, there was no need to keep it secret.

So what changed his mind? Once Doom brings him to Latveria, he decides to help Doom unravel the Beyonders' plans.

As to the other teleporters, obviously they aren't multiverse in nature, while Nightmask was designed and created in each reality for just this task and the Black Swans knew that too.

Isn't the Nightmask different from the Manifold? Anyway, I think I get it now...Doom can already track the MM because he has the energy signature from the fragment of the Mapmaker Earth. A teleporter facilitates the process of finding Reese, and there's a Manifold guaranteed to be in every reality.

[Iron Maiden]

Manifold is a teleporter, but he has a finite use, thus why Black Swan killed him in New Avengers #1.

As to how Reese knew his explosive purpose, he is omnipotent like a Beyonder. Unless the Beyonders purposely mind wiped him, Reese was always aware of his duty to detonate at some particular moment in time, just that we the reader were never made aware of it.

None of this is explained straight out in the books, but we see a whole bundle of Molecule Men were thrown at Beyonders and killed them, so, Reese was particularly lethal, as depicted in New Avengers.

He also was going a bit mad because the Beyonders made so many of him. So that's why he talks nonsense at time. He was fragmented

[NewCanaanite]

He also was going a bit mad because the Beyonders made so many of him. So that's why he talks nonsense at time. He was fragmented

He was going mad because his duplicates were being killed. That's why he's lucid when he goes back in time. And even as his mind broke down, he still knew about his purpose as a bomb, so we can't use that as an explanation for his memories being erased. The only explanations I can think of are:

1) Reese has known that he is a bomb ever since he learned that his origin was connected to the Beyonders and Cosmic Cubes, and he decided to keep this a secret and then later he changed his mind for some reason and decided to tell Dr. Doom
2) Reese did not know he was a bomb until Dr. Doom brought him to his castle during the events of TRO. There, with access to Dr. Doom's lab and the fragment from the other Earth, he somehow learned about his true purpose.