New Avengers 33 *spoilers*

[PlanetaryDevastation]

The Black Swans are appalled by time travel because Doom could use it to save their families. None of them actually have to be Black Swans, if Doom is actually a savior he could just flat out save them all before their tragedies. If Doom is building Battle World in some way of preserving Earth, the Swans start outright destroying Earths to spite him. Because if they can't have nice things, neither can he.

Hey welcome to the boards. Interesting theory.

[emac1790]

"The Child Beyonder"

That annoyed me lol but it was a cool issue and it made me be able to see Doom as the great destroyer.

Still better than "Inhuman Mutant".

[ExodusCloak]

Sentinel camp? Is Black Swan a mutant? And did they all raid Emma Frosts wardrobe? At least that is multiversal.

[runguy]

That wasn't our Black Swan as she was recruited as a child by other BS's.

[robreedwrites]

A question:

Molecule Man (616): They lit my fuse, and now I -- all of me -- am terminal. And when I die... I'll take my universe with me. And they want to see what happens when we all go off at once.

Doom (616): But that isn't what happened. You died and nothing happened.

Molecule Man (616): Sure it did. But that me -- one of an infinite number of me's -- died early. First, in fact. If we're going to thwart their plan, you're going to have to kill a whole lot more of me... and soon.

That exchange says one of two things to me. Either (A) Killing Molecule Man before the twenty-five year simultaneous death of everything prevents his death from destroying the earth and the universe (in which case MM's "Sure it did." means "Sure nothing happened.") This would mean that killing Reece early saves the universe, and so the Incursions are bad because they destroy the universes due to the collapse. In which case our Black Swan is doing the right thing by trying to stop the Incursions.

Or (B), killing the Molecule Man still causes the death of his universe, but it comes earlier than expected, ruining the whole "simultaneous" thing the Beyonders are after. In which case, in killing the MMs early, Doom is trying to get to the point where the Beyonders halt their experiment. The Incursions help him achieve this by killing off MMs early, and so Black Swan is on the wrong side (the side of the Beyonders) because her preserving earths results in the experiment continuing.

Is that right or am I missing something?

EDIT: After re-reading the end of the issue, I'm thinking it's B. Strange asks what the point would be if Doom's actiosn led to the same thing. Doom says that he's trying to save something. This may mean that the Incursions help form Battleworld or that Doom has formed Battleworld in secret.

SECOND EDIT: This would perhaps also explain why the Beyonders killed the Living Tribunal. They were trying to cause the simultaneous death of the Multiverse without Molecule Man.

[PlanetaryDevastation]

A question:



That exchange says one of two things to me. Either (A) Killing Molecule Man before the twenty-five year simultaneous death of everything prevents his death from destroying the earth and the universe (in which case MM's "Sure it did." means "Sure nothing happened.") This would mean that killing Reece early saves the universe, and so the Incursions are bad because they destroy the universes due to the collapse. In which case our Black Swan is doing the right thing by trying to stop the Incursions.

Or (B), killing the Molecule Man still causes the death of his universe, but it comes earlier than expected, ruining the whole "simultaneous" thing the Beyonders are after. In which case, in killing the MMs early, Doom is trying to get to the point where the Beyonders halt their experiment. The Incursions help him achieve this by killing off MMs early, and so Black Swan is on the wrong side (the side of the Beyonders) because her preserving earths results in the experiment continuing.

Is that right or am I missing something?

EDIT: After re-reading the end of the issue, I'm thinking it's B. Strange asks what the point would be if Doom's actiosn led to the same thing. Doom says that he's trying to save something. This may mean that the Incursions help form Battleworld or that Doom has formed Battleworld in secret.

SECOND EDIT: This would perhaps also explain why the Beyonders killed the Living Tribunal. They were trying to cause the simultaneous death of the Multiverse without Molecule Man.

Yeah it is option B. Every Molecule Man death leads to the early death of a universe.

[Melab]

My only response: what the **** is going on? Doom's the cause? That's out of nowhere and doesn't fit. Molecule Man is important here? That's totally random. There is a thin line between "intricate" and "convoluted". Hickman crossed it.

[Darkcross]

A question:



That exchange says one of two things to me. Either (A) Killing Molecule Man before the twenty-five year simultaneous death of everything prevents his death from destroying the earth and the universe (in which case MM's "Sure it did." means "Sure nothing happened.") This would mean that killing Reece early saves the universe, and so the Incursions are bad because they destroy the universes due to the collapse. In which case our Black Swan is doing the right thing by trying to stop the Incursions.

Or (B), killing the Molecule Man still causes the death of his universe, but it comes earlier than expected, ruining the whole "simultaneous" thing the Beyonders are after. In which case, in killing the MMs early, Doom is trying to get to the point where the Beyonders halt their experiment. The Incursions help him achieve this by killing off MMs early, and so Black Swan is on the wrong side (the side of the Beyonders) because her preserving earths results in the experiment continuing.

Is that right or am I missing something?

EDIT: After re-reading the end of the issue, I'm thinking it's B. Strange asks what the point would be if Doom's actiosn led to the same thing. Doom says that he's trying to save something. This may mean that the Incursions help form Battleworld or that Doom has formed Battleworld in secret.

SECOND EDIT: This would perhaps also explain why the Beyonders killed the Living Tribunal. They were trying to cause the simultaneous death of the Multiverse without Molecule Man.

I think (B) the purpose of killing Molecule Men was an attempt to "save something" because there are missing MMs the Beyonder's can't destroy everything at once. But I believe they tried to correct this by creating a virus to infect the super adaptoids (mapmakers). The Mapmakers would find earths (blue incursions) where MMs have died; map it then the frequency it set (NA#30; same frequency as MM) would lure the Cosmic Abtracts and Living Tribunal to wild space where the Beyonders kill them thus destroying the Universe where MM no longer exists. If they were to find and destroy all these universes then they can enact their original plan and destroy what is left of the Multiverse simultaneously.

[ian0delond]

I hope FCBD Secret Wars#0 make a coherent story.

I am not even sure of the chronological order of the events now.
But I may be too linear.

[JKtheMac]

Each MM is a time-bomb. He is due to explode and destroy the universe. They are all the same so they are all timed to go off together.

Killing one stops the fuse. He won't destroy the universe.

The complication is that killing a significant number of MM starts the incursions, which will result in worlds colliding in such a manner that the worlds without molecule men will eventually be destroyed.

So it isn't directly true to say it makes no difference to kill MM or to kill a universe or indeed to kill a world.

The Beyonders want their simultaneous destruction experiment to succeed so once they notice the lack of molecule men they try and fix things, and find out why he is dying. That is why the map makers are looking for worlds without MM. They seed the worlds without MM with beacons to help them map the incursions and try to figure out the pattern of failure. They are effectively looking for the cause of the incursions or to put it another way they are mapping out a path to Doom.

[jackolover]

Killing the Molecule Man can't be killing your Universe though....otherwise the Map Makers wouldn't have any Universes to explore.

I think Doom was right though. For whatever reason Beyonders can't time travel. In that case, making the Molecule Man a time bomb works as it gives the Beyonders time to finish observations and really think about if they want things to end. They can also run final experiments in the time left.

Like I said, I feel like I have almost all the answers to this one now, I just have to process it.

Just another point about Mapmakers. They specifically say they need time to collect all that's salvageable from an Earth before going on to blow it up. If Mapmakers work for the Beyonders, then the Beyonders end up making Battleworld from all the salvage of the Mapmakers. Are we certain Mapmakers are working for Beyonder?

If that's the case, Beyonders aren't working towards instantaneous Multiversal destruction, but forming a Battleworld all along, so Dooms efforts are all for the wrong reasons, and Doom has missed the point. Doom isn't doing something to save the Multiverse. He's listining to a crazy person, Owen Reese, while the Multiverse burns. Isn't that what's going on?

[ian0delond]

It is Doom version.
But even him was not sure why the Black Priests.

[JKtheMac]

The way I read the Swans seeing the timebomb I think they see Doom's hubris. He is about to divert from his plan and attempt to destroy the Beyonders instead. He is going against his stated religious aim of divine destruction. The new plan would seek to save the multiverse which causes the apostate to seek a continuation of the destruction in the name of the true destroyer not this hubristic human who has lied about everything.

[JKtheMac]

Just another point about Mapmakers. They specifically say they need time to collect all that's salvageable from an Earth before going on to blow it up. If Mapmakers work for the Beyonders, then the Beyonders end up making Battleworld from all the salvage of the Mapmakers. Are we certain Mapmakers are working for Beyonder?

If that's the case, Beyonders aren't working towards instantaneous Multiversal destruction, but forming a Battleworld all along, so Dooms efforts are all for the wrong reasons, and Doom has missed the point. Doom isn't doing something to save the Multiverse. He's listining to a crazy person, Owen Reese, while the Multiverse burns. Isn't that what's going on?

The thing is we have no idea yet. We can only speculate about how Battleworld is formed. My bet is "The Beyonder" goes against his race and creates it as a life-raft in a thematic mirror of Reed's smaller version.

[jackolover]

yeah it seems that Reece somehow created (or at least empowered) Manifolds in each reality. But mapmakers don't kill universes. They actually preserve them by destroying each anchor earth after they've mined it for resources. Since they destroy an old earth, there can't be a collision, and therefore no universal destruction.

I guess Reece was too crazy to go seek out help... but there's a plot hole there. If his consciousnesses are linked, he should have gotten someone to start killing MMs way back before the first SW... Im just going to suspend my disbelief on this one and enjoy SW

If Reese was made by Beyonders, Reese wasn't going to tell anyone. Why did he tell Doom in the first place?

The thing is we have no idea yet. We can only speculate about how Battleworld is formed. My bet is "The Beyonder" goes against his race and creates it as a life-raft in a thematic mirror of Reed's smaller version.

Goes against his race? Are we saying the Beyonders wanted instantaneous annihilation of the Multiverse in 2015, (which they triggered in 1990), and sat back and waited? But, a renegade Beyonder liked the current experiment and collected Battleworld to continue? That's going to irk the Beyonders isn't it? Here are the Beyonders, sitting in a locked room arms folded waiting for the final BOOM, and when the clock ticks to midnight, "Hey? Where's all the fireworks? Who was in charge of the detonation?". I think they may be a little disappointed.

What I took from it was that killing an MM destroys the universe. After enough MMs were killed and their universes destroyed, the multiverse starts to collapse like how Reed described the incursions in the first few New Avengers issues. This was part of MM / Doom's plan, as they somehow use the incursion zones to populate battle world. That is why the "heretic black swans" are unknowingly following the path of the Beyonders. By teaching the heroes of Earths about the incursion and encouraging them to blow up other Earths, they are not allowing the incursions to run their course.

It really didn't matter if the Black Swan was delaying one or two incursions here or there, because Incursions were still occurring. She couldn't go to all incursions could she? I don't think Doom was trying to save the Multiverse as much as stall the Beyonders from instantaneous Destruction. In the end, it didn't matter what Doom or BS did.

Is this true? Because if it is, and it appears to be, it spits in the face of everyone who so "valiantly" postured about how heroic the Illuminati/Cabal were for "making the sacrifice" of killing another world to save their own.


Which wouldn't bother me in a general sense because those people were smarmy, even in spite of the fact that a revelation like this predictable (but not in a bad predictable sense)

I'm more inclined to think all those times anyone saves the Earth from destruction was saving the Universe, so it was more, the Illuminati were doing the good thing, albeit in a murderous race for forlorn self-preservation. If the Builders succeeded in destroying Earth in Infinity, they would have killed Reese, and blown up the Universe. I'm still unsure on how you kill a Molecule Man. Sentry couldn't kill Reese, so how can blowing up a planet?

So, with the incursions explained otherwise, along with the map makers accounted for, I think it's now pretty clear that Val is building Battleworld in the former home of the Council of Reeds.

Map makers suspiciously sounds like Battleworld makers. But future Vals story does point to her up to something in an empty universe.