New Avengers 33 *spoilers*

[Dopliss]

My only response: what the **** is going on? Doom's the cause? That's out of nowhere and doesn't fit. Molecule Man is important here? That's totally random. There is a thin line between "intricate" and "convoluted". Hickman crossed it.

Doom and MM were revealed back in New Avengers #31.

[jackolover]

Killing Molecule Men causes the incursions. They originally meant to die in 25 years taking the multiverse all at once. They are a constant that are all the same throughout all universe sharing the same mind. As one dies their mind fragments and go insane. The Swans realized what Doom said was a lie and instead of seeking Molecule Men to kill they kill Earths. Manifolds are created to find Molecule Men. The Beyonders are incapable of time travel and it is their one weakness. So Doom planned to use it as a weapon to kill them but it failed and it took out them and the other universes not destroyed in the incursions causing the missing universes that Reed found in the past.

I thought Manifolds were created as part of the Builders construction set. Didn't our Manifold get made by a very forward thinking Ex Nihilo on our Mars? That seemed rather random to my mind. Builders make Ex Nihilo's, and they make a Manifold. So who was breaking the New Universal machine in the mindscape? If the Beyonders made the Builders 2 million years ago, that created the mindcape a million years ago, this experiment has been going a long time, and what we are seeing here is the destruction of that experiments creators, the Beyonders. When this is all said and done, after Secret Wars, the Multiverse will be wiped clean of any creator interference, (seeing as how the Celestials are all dead, as well as the Kree), and the Earth-616 can be released from any sort of manipulation by any Abstract going forward. So Nu-616 is going to be going into mystery territory.

When the Silver Age started, (with Doom in the background not appearing till FF#5), it was the height of manipulation, with Celestials, Kree, Builders and Beyonders having got them to the Silver Age. The Molecule Man appeared in FF#20, the Watcher warning the FF that Reese could destroy Universes, and from then on it was 25 years of a ticking clock deliberately set to destroy the Multiverse.

The Cube bomb thingy Doom was going to shoot into the Beyonders' rift was the thing below....whatever it is. May be a temporal distortion/time machine device, or some other thing. Strange saw it and freaked. Not sure the Swans saw that...or maybe they saw him with his mask off!

There were multiple Swans in this? I haven't got this yet.

So the Incursions were just a way to get rid of those Earths whose Molecule Man had died prematurely (and hence wouldn't die at the same time when their time came?).

And the Swans killed so many billions of Owens Reeces that all the Universes save a mere 100,000 had to be destroyed with Incursions instead of with Molecule Men "bombs".

Or was it Doom who started the Incursions in order to mess with the Beyonder's plan?

I don't understand the bit about the "problem solving virus". The Beyonders infected the Superadaptoids, turning them into the Mapmakers, and then...what? What were the Mapmakers doing? They destroyed Earths, which did prevent the Incursions AND killed the local Molecule Men if they weren't already dead.

And what was Doom doing at the end of the comic? Was he throwing a building full with Owen Reece's energy at them?

It sounds to me that the Earth-616 super humans resisted the Beyonders master plan to eradicate the Multiverse, to be the ones who will preserve some form of their reality going into the future. If the Beyonders were successful - no more Marvel. But this little backwater Earth - 616 was the source of resistance, that wasn't going to let that happen.

I think (B) the purpose of killing Molecule Men was an attempt to "save something" because there are missing MMs the Beyonder's can't destroy everything at once. But I believe they tried to correct this by creating a virus to infect the super adaptoids (mapmakers). The Mapmakers would find earths (blue incursions) where MMs have died; map it then the frequency it set (NA#30; same frequency as MM) would lure the Cosmic Abtracts and Living Tribunal to wild space where the Beyonders kill them thus destroying the Universe where MM no longer exists. If they were to find and destroy all these universes then they can enact their original plan and destroy what is left of the Multiverse simultaneously.

The Beyonders set the switch (the creation of multiple Molecule Men in a lot of Universes). The the Beyonders create the Map makers to vacuum up those Earths that don't have a MM, and sit back arms folded for 2015. What they never counted on was Dooms time platform. Unbeknownst to the Beyonders, Doom went back in time and started messing with the plan (Black Swans, Black Priests, Molecule Mans intervention). Midnight is just arriving, and Doom opens the door to their room and pops them.

It is Doom version.
But even him was not sure why the Black Priests.

Wasn't Doctor Strange, the leader of the Black Priests, standing right next to Doom last issue? Why didn't Victor ask him?

I also have to wonder what were all those Events for, leading up to Secret Wars 2015? Original Sin? The Watcher giving up and letting Fury kill him? Did Uatu already know his job was over? All those welts appearing on Earth lately, Age of Ultron, AIM expanding from the future, the Attack on the FF on the last days, Uatu watching the Multiverse and seeing WhatIf? Age of Ultron, the Chonanachist Attack, 2099 flips into 2015, a string of Dinosaur appearances in NY, Carols time travel Plane appearing. All these welts, and many more, started happening around the same time that Hickmans stories started appearing around the books, as though they were symptoms of the Secret War and the end of times. And why wouldn't super villains try their one last effort to conquer Earth, knowing 2015 was it and then it was all over? Why did the Phoenix suddenly move from where it was and cause AVX?

Heroic Age, following Dark Reign, was the last chance for the Earth to do something with all its heroes back at full strength. Since HA, the time clock was ticking towards Secret Wars. Phoenix destroyed Earth in "Iron Age", but that was thwarted by time travel. If the Earth was destroyed then, Doom wouldn't have been able to travel to the past as the Great Destroyer, and maybe preserve a Battleworld.

[xcoijoi]

I just remembered something, about time travel & the original so-called 'child' Beyonder. (If anyone has mentioned this, apologies).

In the original Secret Wars, the Beyonder pulled Doom out from a previous point in his life, prior to his body being crushed in the Tyros/Terrax/Surfer battle.

So what's the deal with being linear? Are they incapable of traveling through time themselves, or are they just able to see and interact with past periods, without being able to travel themselves? Or did the original Beyonder happen to see a showing of Interstellar, offered by some future time traveler, and was able to figure it all out from the movie?

[NeutralShade62]

I just remembered something, about time travel & the original so-called 'child' Beyonder. (If anyone has mentioned this, apologies).

In the original Secret Wars, the Beyonder pulled Doom out from a previous point in his life, prior to his body being crushed in the Tyros/Terrax/Surfer battle.

So what's the deal with being linear? Are they incapable of traveling through time themselves, or are they just able to see and interact with past periods, without being able to travel themselves? Or did the original Beyonder happen to see a showing of Interstellar, offered by some future time traveler, and was able to figure it all out from the movie?

Hmm well originally beyonder was capable (ovbiously) of any time travel he wished (we all know the child unit beyonder is a cherry picked retcon, or we should by now), we can only speculate until there is more info from the panels themselves, im actually curious myself.

[jphamlore]

I just remembered something, about time travel & the original so-called 'child' Beyonder. (If anyone has mentioned this, apologies).

In the original Secret Wars, the Beyonder pulled Doom out from a previous point in his life, prior to his body being crushed in the Tyros/Terrax/Surfer battle.

So what's the deal with being linear? Are they incapable of traveling through time themselves, or are they just able to see and interact with past periods, without being able to travel themselves? Or did the original Beyonder happen to see a showing of Interstellar, offered by some future time traveler, and was able to figure it all out from the movie?

Interstellar's premise would actually be a great explanation of why the Beyonders want to annihilate the Multiverse, because they would be hoping to see a naked singularity and thus learn how to manipulate time as just another dimension.

At least the issue is consistent with the solicitation released just days ago for Secret Wars #5:
"SECRET WARS #5 (OF 8)
...
OWEN REECE DIED FOR OUR SINS!"

[rukkis]

My interpritation was pretty much the same as Habis. I would add the following though.

So:

1.-The Molecule Men are universe-destroying bombs.
2.-Killing a Molecule Man sets him early, destroying his universe.
3.-Destroying enough universes starts the chain of incursions.
Once Doom has killed enough MMs to get Universes tilted off of their axis, I think he would have stopped killing MMs so that he would not needlessly sacrifice any more Universes. The whole point of killing MMs at all was to destroy enough Universes to start the incursions.
4.-Doom and Molecule Man apparently did that to mess with the Beyonder's experiment.
I believe they did it because somehow they are able to use the inversion mechanics to transport the incursion zone to Battleworld and ensure the continuation of the Multiverse/life/existence.
5.-The rogue Swans were trying to save the Multiverse destroying Earths to stop the Incursions.
Except they were unknowingly helping to destroy the Multiverse by preventing Doom from saving the incursion zones from a Universe that was going to be destroyed anyways. Also they were possibly contributing to the end of the Multiverse by creating a situation where many MMs were killed by antimatter bombs.
6.-The Universe itself (Eternity?) created the Black Priests to destroy Earths and stop the Incursions.

As far as stars blowing up, I think that could just be a side effect of the Universe being off of its axis within the Multiverse. The same thing that causes incursions is causing other smaller universal hi-jinx.

[Biclopcicle]

I thought Manifolds were created as part of the Builders construction set. Didn't our Manifold get made by a very forward thinking Ex Nihilo on our Mars? That seemed rather random to my mind. Builders make Ex Nihilo's, and they make a Manifold. So who was breaking the New Universal machine in the mindscape? If the Beyonders made the Builders 2 million years ago, that created the mindcape a million years ago, this experiment has been going a long time, and what we are seeing here is the destruction of that experiments creators, the Beyonders. When this is all said and done, after Secret Wars, the Multiverse will be wiped clean of any creator interference, (seeing as how the Celestials are all dead, as well as the Kree), and the Earth-616 can be released from any sort of manipulation by any Abstract going forward. So Nu-616 is going to be going into mystery territory.

When the Silver Age started, (with Doom in the background not appearing till FF#5), it was the height of manipulation, with Celestials, Kree, Builders and Beyonders having got them to the Silver Age. The Molecule Man appeared in FF#20, the Watcher warning the FF that Reese could destroy Universes, and from then on it was 25 years of a ticking clock deliberately set to destroy the Multiverse.

Couple of things:
-Ex Nihilo made Adam, who became a Nightmask in the White event. Manifold was a preexisting character, introduced in Hickman's Secret Warriors series. Somehow Reece created the Manifold power once he and Doom went back in time (13) years. In NA33, you see him draw the Manifold sigil in the air...surprised they showed that in the preview art, actually. Though I wasn't sure what the hell was happening until today lol
-Molecule Man has been around for fewer than 25 years...in comic book time. I think Marvel time is in a ratio of 4:1. So his first appearance was in 1963, which would be 13 years ago marvel time. He has another 12 Marvel years before his fuse goes out.
-as far as we know, the Beyonders didn't create the builders, they're just an old species, billions of years old, most likely, as it says they're the oldest species in the universe(s)
-there will likely be a new Multiverse, as Franklin showed Rogers that in 5000 years, Avengers World polices the known universes

[Songbird/Diamondback]

HEHEHEHE!!! DOOM MAKES THE MULTIVERSE GO BOOM!!!

Anyways, the logic just seems off...if 616 MM is alive, why are incursions happening to 616?

[Biclopcicle]

HEHEHEHE!!! DOOM MAKES THE MULTIVERSE GO BOOM!!!

Anyways, the logic just seems off...if 616 MM is alive, why are incursions happening to 616?

Because once enough universes collapse, the remaining multiverse contracts, bringing universes closer together. This affects a universe regardless of its MM status

[Roundman]

If Mapmakers only show up on worlds in which MM is dead, then why did they appear in the incursion on 616 in NA6? MM was still alive.

[Biclopcicle]

If Mapmakers only show up on worlds in which MM is dead, then why did they appear in the incursion on 616 in NA6? MM was still alive.

They map worlds where MM was killed, but their goal is to track down the killer...Black Swan and Doom were both on our earth and have presumably both killed MMs

[Melab]

Interstellar's premise would actually be a great explanation of why the Beyonders want to annihilate the Multiverse, because they would be hoping to see a naked singularity and thus learn how to manipulate time as just another dimension.

At least the issue is consistent with the solicitation released just days ago for Secret Wars #5:
"SECRET WARS #5 (OF 8)
...
OWEN REECE DIED FOR OUR SINS!"

Sounds convoluted.

[Songbird/Diamondback]

They map worlds where MM was killed, but their goal is to track down the killer...Black Swan and Doom were both on our earth and have presumably both killed MMs

I don't know, this explanation just seems more nonsensical the more I think about it.

[DrTraveler]

Except that MM says all Owen Reeces are exactly the same. They're a multiversal constant and they simultaneously share a consciousness across the multiverse.

Wanted to come back and apologize. You were right. I reread this when I got a chance tonight and indeed, all Owen Reeses are the same. They may be hard to find because the Earths are different, but Owen himself is the same. Good catch there.

[Anubhavkumarc]

Doom is a freaking idiot, makes me hate him more.