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  1. #106
    Junior Member DrTraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biclopcicle View Post
    Killing a Molecule Man destroys your universe. But a "critical mass" of destroyed universes had to be reached in order to start incursions. "when you reach a high enough threshold youll start seeing some real results from your work. The blue and red shift of incursions."
    ... I suppose the idea is that if he kills all the Molecule men, the Beyonder's cant destroy everything simultaneously. Why the beyonders didn't set off their "bombs" of Molecule men right as each Owen Reece became MM, I don't know. Maybe they created him but weren't exactly planning on multiversal collapse just yet.

    then, the beyonders used a multiversal virus to capture Adaptoids and turn them into mapmakers- they were mapping the the earths that Doom had found MM and killed him. Those were the blue incursions. I guess a "red shift" incursion goes in one direction, while the Mapmakers are "going against the grain" backtracking to try and find the MM killer- and that's what creates a "blue shift" incursion
    ...and another apology. Once I reread NA 33, you were right. Killing a Molecule Man starts the death of your universe. It isn't instantaneous if they are killed early, but it does happen all the same.

    Your post and the reread cleared up my last issues. So the timeline is that Doom and Owen kill the first alternate Molecule Man. His Universe starts to die but it lingers for a while during which time Doom kills more Owen's. About 7 years into the process the Incursions start, likely triggered by the early death of the universe housing the site of the original murder. By that point the Universes start to really die off, one after another as the delayed time reaction really kicks in. The Beyonders notice this and attempt to put the experiment back on track via the Map Makers. Most of the Avengers run happens at this point, but before the final show down between the Avengers, Illuminati, New and Mighty Avengers we have Thor's Multiversal Avengers assault on the Beyonders, followed almost immediately by Doom's assault on the Beyonders.

    Whatever Doom does (It looks like he's attacking them with a weapon made of stacked Doom Time Machines, a particularly nasty weapon), Doom's assault triggers the massive collapse of the multiverse. It is possible Doom's assault doesn't trigger the collapse, merely that Doom's assault was ill timed and the Owen Reeses went off in each of their universes. Whatever did happen, that collapse triggers the end of our Avengers run and the final show downs.

  2. #107
    Junior Member DrTraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
    So let me get this straight. The Illuminati (and the Cabal?) have so far assumed that when they destroy another Earth then they save both universes (only the Earth of the other universe is destroyed). But when they blow up another Earth then they also kill the Molecule Man on that Earth, right? So that means that they have been killing entire universes, not just other Earths.

    And if Gladiator had managed to destroy our Earth (when Molecule Man was still there) then he would have unknowingly destroyed the entire universe (even though he thought he'd be doing the exact opposite).
    Exactly. Killing the other Earth doesn't save both Universes. It triggers the early death of the Universe housing the Earth that was destroyed, while allowing the other Earth's Owen Reese to continue on his path towards oblivion. What a messed up situation.

  3. #108
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    Having read the issue, I must say that to some extent I am satisfied although some doubts creep in, and I see that I am not the only one.

    1. I can buy MM explanations about the Beyonders wanting to see what happens if they blow everything up at the same time. I guess they are a race beyond the observable Multiverse and they just care about living beings in the way a researcher cares about his test subjects. My only complain here would be how MM became aware of his role as a bomb. I guess we could sort of say that the influence of the original Beyonder (the child Beyonder) had a waking up effect on MM. Okay, it retcons all the stuff about MM and the original Beyonder being parts of the Cosmic Cube, as I guess it was never thought that there was an actual race of Beyonders. Then again, I think they never really explained much about where the Beyonder came from and we can obviously forget about Bendis' mutant inhuman thing.

    2. MM proposes to Doom to kill him in many universes to foil the plan of the Beyonders to make all of the Multiverse blow at the same time. Sounds reasonable. However, I think in here, at least from my point of view and from other people I have read here, there is a jump in logic: how does killing plenty of MM starts the incursions? I guess the doubt comes in the form of: what happens when you kill the MM of a universe before he is supposed to blow up? Is it simply that the universe dies a short while after and not immediately? That seems the most likely explanation, although its not clear why if you kill the bomb before it goes off it still destroys that universe. I guess one can only assume that is how the Beyonders designed it. Then I guess Reed's explanation that the early death of a universe caused a chain reaction makes sense, although it was not the early death of a universe, but rather the early death of tonnes of universes that started the chain reaction. IMO, there are some jumps in logic but okay. What is not very clear is what MM says about the red and blue shifts of the incursions, what does he mean by that?

    3. There is however a flaw that I hope will be explained. One could argue that if by killing MMs is destroying universes you are simply advancing the plan of the Beyonders of destroying the Multiverse, albeit one at a time rather than all of them at the same time. However, and I guess that will be revealed, the red and blue incursions are somehow useful for a reason and perhaps that is how you can save some stuff as Doom implies.

    4. The rest to me somehow seems fine. The Beyonders use the mapmakers and the Sidera Maris try to chart the MM-less worlds to try and find out who is screwing with their carefully crafted plan. What is not that clear is the role of the black priests. If they are the universe defence mechanism as is suggested, destroying earths and killing MM in the process is anyway destroying the universe right? Doesn't sound like they are defending much to me for now.

    5. Doom has found the Beyonders' weakness and finally reveals himself to them to try and stick one up theirs by using their linear nature against them. Somehow, something doesnt work out as planned and that results in many universes being destroyed at the same time. How does that happen? Again, hope that will be answered in Secret Wars.

    I guess the child Beyonder will appear at some point.

  4. #109
    Junior Member DrTraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InformationGeek View Post
    So this was exposition the comic with just a small bit of story at the very end so it felt like things happened. Bravo writer, bravo.



    Well he certainly makes me yawn, that's for sure. That man loves his pretentious and "profound" narration and exposition. Too bad it never really gets interesting until the ending when the character gets to the actual point.


    Actually, Doom is rather kinky for tricking out the Black Swans in those clothing, especially when they are so young. I also love how all of his followers have the exact same body type. Doesn't matter what's up with their heads, they have the exact same measurements it looks like. Creepy.
    I do enjoy Hickman's writing a lot, but what you mentioned...yeah. Just creepy. In fact, there's a Dark Reign one shot that collects short stories for each of the Cabal members. Hickman wrote the Doom chapter and it has a truly creepy ass scene with Doom that backs up what you're saying there. I didn't read that story until long after I'd read his F4 run and I recall being simultaneously creeped out and disappointed by how badly he'd missed the mark with Doom's character. Other than that one short story though, I'd always thought Hickman's Doom is a fascinating character.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roundman View Post
    If Mapmakers only show up on worlds in which MM is dead, then why did they appear in the incursion on 616 in NA6? MM was still alive.
    The beyonders maybe knew that our MM killed the first MM which started the early death of everything. They could have been seeking him and the destroyer out too. Doom did use their beacon to find Reese in the 616.

    I was wondering if the surprise death of those universes were a result of the beyonders detonating the remaiming MM knowing that they were set to die as a result of Doom.

  6. #111
    Junior Member DrTraveler's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Habis;1149938

    It still doesn't explain why the stars were dying, if is was neither because of Owen's death (Earth 616's Owen is still alive) or because of the Incursions...
    [/QUOTE]

    The stars are dying because Owen is. He has a very brief life span and as he warns Doom when he dies, everything will go too. Reese's condition worsens as he gets to the moment of detonation. That's why in the past with Doom he's completely lucid, but as time passes he's falling apart mental and one would assume physically. As he dies, he's taking everything with him.

  7. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcbret1987 View Post
    I think they never really explained much about where the Beyonder came from and we can obviously forget about Bendis' mutant inhuman thing.
    Well it's abit tricky, pre-retcon beyonder was from the beyond realm, he was basically the god of the beyond realm, though if you mean current version then i have no idea but i would still assume where the beyonders are from (still some form of the beyond realm?) though in this version he is obviously not "The God" since the "child unit" label happened.
    Last edited by NeutralShade62; 04-29-2015 at 09:39 PM.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcbret1987 View Post
    Having read the issue, I must say that to some extent I am satisfied although some doubts creep in, and I see that I am not the only one.

    1. I can buy MM explanations about the Beyonders wanting to see what happens if they blow everything up at the same time. I guess they are a race beyond the observable Multiverse and they just care about living beings in the way a researcher cares about his test subjects. My only complain here would be how MM became aware of his role as a bomb. I guess we could sort of say that the influence of the original Beyonder (the child Beyonder) had a waking up effect on MM. Okay, it retcons all the stuff about MM and the original Beyonder being parts of the Cosmic Cube, as I guess it was never thought that there was an actual race of Beyonders. Then again, I think they never really explained much about where the Beyonder came from and we can obviously forget about Bendis' mutant inhuman thing.

    2. MM proposes to Doom to kill him in many universes to foil the plan of the Beyonders to make all of the Multiverse blow at the same time. Sounds reasonable. However, I think in here, at least from my point of view and from other people I have read here, there is a jump in logic: how does killing plenty of MM starts the incursions? I guess the doubt comes in the form of: what happens when you kill the MM of a universe before he is supposed to blow up? Is it simply that the universe dies a short while after and not immediately? That seems the most likely explanation, although its not clear why if you kill the bomb before it goes off it still destroys that universe. I guess one can only assume that is how the Beyonders designed it. Then I guess Reed's explanation that the early death of a universe caused a chain reaction makes sense, although it was not the early death of a universe, but rather the early death of tonnes of universes that started the chain reaction. IMO, there are some jumps in logic but okay. What is not very clear is what MM says about the red and blue shifts of the incursions, what does he mean by that?

    3. There is however a flaw that I hope will be explained. One could argue that if by killing MMs is destroying universes you are simply advancing the plan of the Beyonders of destroying the Multiverse, albeit one at a time rather than all of them at the same time. However, and I guess that will be revealed, the red and blue incursions are somehow useful for a reason and perhaps that is how you can save some stuff as Doom implies.

    4. The rest to me somehow seems fine. The Beyonders use the mapmakers and the Sidera Maris try to chart the MM-less worlds to try and find out who is screwing with their carefully crafted plan. What is not that clear is the role of the black priests. If they are the universe defence mechanism as is suggested, destroying earths and killing MM in the process is anyway destroying the universe right? Doesn't sound like they are defending much to me for now.

    5. Doom has found the Beyonders' weakness and finally reveals himself to them to try and stick one up theirs by using their linear nature against them. Somehow, something doesnt work out as planned and that results in many universes being destroyed at the same time. How does that happen? Again, hope that will be answered in Secret Wars.

    I guess the child Beyonder will appear at some point.
    To me the life and death of the multiverse existed on a single timeline. The birth of the multiverse was when the beyonders made it. It's death was meant to be when all the MM detonated. When Reese killed that first MM that meant the multiverse wouldn't be dying when it was designed to. It would die ever so sooner. With each subsequent death of a MM the death would be accelerated. Eventually this resulted in the incursions where the death of everything could be greatly accelerated. Now the exact mechanism hasn't been explained but it's possible that without a MM a given universes would be open to events that resulted in its early death. As more universes were made the chance of that happening increased and eventually out of chance (considering what happens in some of these universes) one is destroyed early. To me it could be the universe the Nazi Reed came fromin Hickmans FF. There was a scene in a point one issue he lost control of his infinity gauntlet and in his words everything died. Or it could have been any number or comic book universe ending scenarios. Once one of these universes without MM died then the sequence Reed described starts where universes begin to crash together.
    Last edited by chaosfist; 04-29-2015 at 10:12 PM.

  9. #114
    Veteran Member jphamlore's Avatar
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    Now I am wondering why the prequel trade for Secret Wars is not including the last couple of issues of New Avengers. Is a reader unfamiliar with the story expected as a matter of course to pick up the last trade for New Avengers, which by that time if out might be only in a more expensive hardcover shrinkwrapped format?

    Poor Reed Richards is being lapped repeatedly by Doom as far as knowledge of the Multiverse goes. I wonder if he is condemned to basically have no effect on events for the rest of his life since he was supposed to have been killed by the Mad Celestials.

  10. #115
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    Ok. A couple of observatios. Killing the Molecule Man does not end the universe. Doom recruited his first swan after killing one. The incursions are a good thing for doom. They are a quicker more effective way of killing the Molecule man. Everything is dying out for the exact reason Reed said. The incursions are making everything end sooner. Doom is ok with this because it goes against the Beyonders plans and he feels he can save some things. When a Rouge swan destroys an earth it helps the Beyonders because a
    Molecule man may be spared. There is nothing that says he is always on earth. I also think that Doom is using his time travel technology to throw the building Owen was in when he was transformed. Doom was talking about going back in time and changing destiny. This may create a paradox for the Beyondets. Reed's assumption of a pre mature death of a universe caused the incursions is false. He is going by what the Swan is telling him..which was confirmed to be a lie.
    Last edited by exiled; 04-29-2015 at 10:04 PM.

  11. #116
    Junior Member rukkis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exiled View Post
    Ok. A couple of observatios. Killing the Molecule Man does not end the universe. Doom recruited his first swan after killing one. The incursions are a good thing for doom. They are a quicker more effective way of killing the Molecule man. Everything is dying out for the exact reason Reed said. The incursions are making everything end sooner. Doom is ok with this because it goes against the Beyonders plans and he feels he can save some things. When a Rouge swan destroys an earth it helps the Beyonders because a
    Molecule man may be spared. There is nothing that says he is always on earth. I also think that Doom is using his time travel technology to throw the building Owen was in when he was transformed. Doom was talking about going back in time and changing destiny. This may create a paradox for the Beyondets. Reed's assumption of a pre mature death of a universe caused the incursions is false. He is going by what the Swan is telling him..which was confirmed to be a lie.
    Then what causes the incursions to start in your opinion?

  12. #117
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    THe Beyonders started the incursions. Eliminating MM thwarts that right?

    Maybe Doom runs out of time too? Maybe blue and red is a indicator of upcoming success denied?
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  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by rukkis View Post
    Then what causes the incursions to start in your opinion?
    Owen tells doom after he kills enough of him the incursions start. He had to kill the Molecule man for 7 years before the first one started. But everything else reed said is correct. The Swan lied or was told this legend by Doom. That is why reed bought into it.

  14. #119
    Firm Militant Judgement.. Moose100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exiled View Post
    Owen tells doom after he kills enough of him the incursions start. He had to kill the Molecule man for 7 years before the first one started. But everything else reed said is correct. The Swan lied or was told this legend by Doom. That is why reed bought into it.
    Are you sure he's telling him that killing him STARTS the incursions?
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  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moose100 View Post
    Are you sure he's telling him that killing him STARTS the incursions?
    So he kills him and 7 years later an incursion happens? Read the scene where doom kills a Molecule man. Owen said he only killed a thousand and needed to kill more so world's collide.

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