New Avengers 33 *spoilers*

[chaosfist]

THe Beyonders started the incursions. Eliminating MM thwarts that right?

Maybe Doom runs out of time too? Maybe blue and red is a indicator of upcoming success denied?

It says the the incursions started seven years in of killing MM. The beyonders noticed something was wrong 10 years in and sent the virus to create Mapmakers and see what was killing the MM. So I cant see why they would have started them before they noticed MM were being killed. They desired to kill the whole multiverse at once. The incursions are the work of Rabum Alal

[Moose100]

It says the the incursions started seven years in of killing MM. The beyonders noticed something was wrong 10 years in and sent the virus to create Mapmakers and see what was killing the MM. So I cant see why they would have started them before they noticed MM were being killed. They desired to kill the whole multiverse at once. The incursions are the work of Rabum Alal

I'm not trying to be a stickler here and I did read the issue twice. Im not sure that that suggests that his actions STARTED the incursions.

The idea is that it was accidental on Doom's part?

Maybe this is why there is a Battleworld instead of nothing at all? Premature incursions lead to that?

[exiled]

It says the the incursions started seven years in of killing MM. The beyonders noticed something was wrong 10 years in and sent the virus to create Mapmakers and see what was killing the MM. So I cant see why they would have started them before they noticed MM were being killed. They desired to kill the whole multiverse at once. The incursions are the work of Rabum Alal

Exactly! After 7 years doom had killed enough molecule men to have the incursions start. The theory that they started with the Earl death of a universe is a lie. It may have even been a lie doom told the swans which is why reed believed it.

[exiled]

I'm not trying to be a stickler here and I did read the issue twice. Im not sure that that suggests that his actions STARTED the incursions.

The idea is that it was accidental on Doom's part?

Maybe this is why there is a Battleworld instead of nothing at all? Premature incursions lead to that?

Where does it say accidental? Doom was told if he killed enough molecule men the incursions would start.

[Biclopcicle]

Now I am wondering why the prequel trade for Secret Wars is not including the last couple of issues of New Avengers. Is a reader unfamiliar with the story expected as a matter of course to pick up the last trade for New Avengers, which by that time if out might be only in a more expensive hardcover shrinkwrapped format?

Poor Reed Richards is being lapped repeatedly by Doom as far as knowledge of the Multiverse goes. I wonder if he is condemned to basically have no effect on events for the rest of his life since he was supposed to have been killed by the Mad Celestials.

Oddly enough, Hickman said you don't need these last two issues to enjoy secret wars. Hard to believe, but I guess if he said that, then you have to be invested in the entire NA/Avengers run to enjoy secret wars. And that's not great marketing.

Yes Doom is the man. Well not as much after this last issue, but he outdid the Illuminati big time. With the molecule man, of course. I think Doom v Maker is going to be EPIC

[Moose100]

Where does it say accidental? Doom was told if he killed enough molecule men the incursions would start.

Dude relax I'm just trying to figure this out

[jphamlore]

Reed's assumption of a pre mature death of a universe caused the incursions is false. He is going by what the Swan is telling him..which was confirmed to be a lie.

616 Reed's reputation as a heroic scientist in my opinion has been trashed beyond repair in this arc. What good is Reed at all? He knew nothing months ago and has done nothing to inform himself what is actually going on in the Multiverse. He even had to be told to use the Bridge as a Mirror by Black Swan. But how often have we seen Reed actually learning something from the Bridge? Doom has done everything to give the Multiverse even a sliver of a chance of surviving. Why should anyone in the future call on Reed's help when the chips are down, just go directly up to Doom.

This is such a destruction of Reed's character, and by extension the Fantastic Four who used to be the go-to team for handling situations such as Time Runs Out, that I still am wondering if the plan is to reboot this team back to before the children and before Reed and Sue's marriage, to turn 616 Fantastic Four into something resembling what Ultimate Fantastic Four used to be.

[Biclopcicle]

Exactly! After 7 years doom had killed enough molecule men to have the incursions start. The theory that they started with the Earl death of a universe is a lie. It may have even been a lie doom told the swans which is why reed believed it.

The incursions did begin with an event that caused the early death of a universe. Killing a molecule man results in his universe's death. It is probably not an instantaneous death, otherwise mapmakers couldn't trace him and track his killlers

[Moose100]

616 Reed's reputation as a heroic scientist in my opinion has been trashed beyond repair in this arc. What good is Reed at all? He knew nothing months ago and has done nothing to inform himself what is actually going on in the Multiverse. He even had to be told to use the Bridge as a Mirror by Black Swan. But how often have we seen Reed actually learning something from the Bridge? Doom has done everything to give the Multiverse even a sliver of a chance of surviving. Why should anyone in the future call on Reed's help when the chips are down, just go directly up to Doom.

This is such a destruction of Reed's character, and by extension the Fantastic Four who used to be the go-to team for handling situations such as Time Runs Out, that I still am wondering if the plan is to reboot this team back to before the children and before Reed and Sue's marriage, to turn 616 Fantastic Four into something resembling what Ultimate Fantastic Four used to be.

Yea I kinda feel thia way too. Rebooting imo won't fix that either.

[jphamlore]

Oddly enough, Hickman said you don't need these last two issues to enjoy secret wars. Hard to believe, but I guess if he said that, then you have to be invested in the entire NA/Avengers run to enjoy secret wars. And that's not great marketing.

Yes Doom is the man. Well not as much after this last issue, but he outdid the Illuminati big time. With the molecule man, of course. I think Doom v Maker is going to be EPIC

There are several indications that Doom will be the one running Battleworld as its master. The only thing that would make the final issue of Hickman's Fantastic Four more relevant than the last two issues of New Avengers would be if the shocking revelation of Secret Wars #4 would be for Doom to take off the mask only to reveal the face of adult Valeria Richards.

[exiled]

The incursions did begin with an event that caused the early death of a universe. Killing a molecule man results in his universe's death. It is probably not an instantaneous death, otherwise mapmakers couldn't trace him and track his killlers

It doesn't say that anywhere in the book. When the Molecule man said "sure it did" he meant that the kill was counted towards the incursions. Doom had to kill a certain amount to start them.

[Moose100]

See thats the thing. Doom said "anything" not specifically incursions.

[exiled]

It doesn't say that anywhere in the book. When the Molecule man said "sure it did" he meant that the kill was counted towards the incursions. Doom had to kill a certain amount to start them.

It was also confirmed that the swans story was a lie and so was Rabum Alals origin. The destruction of universes and incursions started when dooms body count was high enough.

[JamJams]

After reading it and thinking about it for a bit I think this is how all the 'factions' in Hickman's run have panned out.

beyonders - from 'beyond' normal time/space, they are attempting a 'great experiment' to see what happens if all of normal space is destroyed at the same time.

molecule man - created by the beyonders and exists in all multiverses as the same person with the same consciousness and power. will detonate after 25 years with enough power to destroy the universe he occupies which means all things everywhere die at once. his death does not cause the death of the earth but the universe will still die possibly because his unified conscious dying constricts the universe closer to its neighbors

great destroyer - is doom from 616 but with an additional 10 years added. in order to stop the beyonders 'great experiment' he has been traveling from world to world killing molecule man. he created the black swans and has secretly been collecting pieces of earths destroyed in incursions.

incursions - seven years of doom killing the molcule man resulted in universes being constricted close enough that they begin colliding with each other with earth as the focal point. if both earths remain after the eight hour window then both universes are destroyed. if one earth is destroyed the surviving earth constricts closer to the remaining universes and the destroyed earth universe survives but will eventually die like every other universe missing a molecule man.

black swans - religious cult created by doom under the guise of the great destroyer to assist in killing molecule men

rogue black swans - saw doom's "secret" and have rebelled against him by finding earths and destroying them during incursions. it is likely they saw doom creating battleworld and are destroying the earths to deny him from taking a piece of that world when the earths collide.

map makers - created by the beyonders by a virus that hijacks any artificial intelligence that attempts to travel through the multiverse. their job is to find any earths that molecule man has been killed on and to set a beacon that the beyonders can use to try to track down doom.

black priests - doctor strange leads them in performing surgical strikes against incursion planets in hopes of attempting to stabilize the multiverse. doing so inadvertently helps the beyonders like the rogue black swans.

builders - one of the oldest civilizations that lives in the superflow, between normal space and the 'beyond space', the incursions are destroying the superflow so they are attempting to destroy the earths in as many universes as possible in order to stabilize the multiverse which also inadvertently helping the beyonders.

avengers - the avengers machine (an expanded, more powerful roster of the Avengers) was created by tony in an attempt to keep everyone not in the illuminati distracted from the bigger problem of the entire multiverse dying by dealing with global and universal crisis.

illuminati - created as a way to figure out how to stop the incursions permanently and to save the earth by any means necissary while doing so

cabal - created by namor when the illuminati failed to achieve goal #2. by helping black swan achieve her goals of destroying earths they are also inadvertently helping the beyonders.

[marcbret1987]

To me the life and death of the multiverse existed on a single timeline. The birth of the multiverse was when the beyonders made it. It's death was meant to be when all the MM detonated. When Reese killed that first MM that meant the multiverse wouldn't be dying when it was designed to. It would die ever so sooner. With each subsequent death of a MM the death would be accelerated. Eventually this resulted in the incursions where the death of everything could be greatly accelerated. Now the exact mechanism hasn't been explained but it's possible that without a MM a given universes would be open to events that resulted in its early death. As more universes were made the chance of that happening increased and eventually out of chance (considering what happens in some of these universes) one is destroyed early. To me it could be the universe the Nazi Reed came fromin Hickmans FF. There was a scene in a point one issue he lost control of his infinity gauntlet and in his words everything died. Or it could have been any number or comic book universe ending scenarios. Once one of these universes without MM died then the sequence Reed described starts where universes begin to crash together.

Your comment is interesting and leads to another question I had. As I mentioned in my previous comment, originally we had the Beyonder, a being of unimaginable power, who created the original Battleworld and started the 1985 Secret Wars. Now, this Beyonder has been retconned as a child Beyonder and suddenly we have a whole race of these beings living outside the observable multiverse. Their nature, who they are and what they come from hasn't really been explained. We don't know whether they are the ones who created the multiverse right? So far we only know they want to destroy it and they have the means to do it.

And yes, its not very clear what happens when you kill the MM of a universe. Obviously, the Universe doesn't blow up straight away, but ends up perishing after some time by some unknown factor.