Page 21 of 21 FirstFirst ... 111718192021
Results 301 to 314 of 314
  1. #301
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    9,409

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    This is the problem with not being able to buy your books on a wednesday, everybody's already done discussing!!!

    But serious, how do you go about assessing Hickman's Avengers? I was going to say I'm in two minds about it but I think my opinion is much more multifaceted then that. Ultimately, it was above average, but I do think there were a lot of rushed ideas and brushed over opportunities to make this book what it should have been. I know some people are complaining about length, but really I think this should have been given probably another 6 months to a year to let the third act breath, or at least make a lot of the subplots feel like subplots and not just background tablaeus to May's big event.

    My opinion about the run as a whole:

    Year 1 (Mars to the end of Infinity) - Fantastic Building Blocks to a Whole New Universal take on the Team

    These issues, not only did they feel different to any superhero comic on the stands, they felt like they had character to them, a life of their own. The way that dialogue was paced, Hickman's trademark white title pages, the unique character graph, the overarching cosmic setting. It felt like I was reading a Marvel book, but instead something crafted from Hickman's Image catalogue. Each issue was paced episodically, you could understand the rhythm of the book and you felt there was a specific narrative theme throughout each issue, almost like little pieces were fitting together to make one meta arc. Yes, the Builder War was a little bit of a non-threat, but the status quo that it looked like was going to be shaped -- Universal Avengers and a Multiversal Illuminati -- really got me excited. Much to my dismay however, after the builder threat the book departed from its cosmic side and, strangely in my opinion, focused solely on Earth till its conclusion.

    Year 2 (Rogue Planet - Original Sin) - Slowly Losing the Books Identity but still Strong

    The evil avengers arc was extremely bland. Nothing more really needs to be said. I would have rather had those issues focusing on the newer recruits, or fleshing out the Rogue Planet one shot which felt so rushed. Conversely, I thought the Original Sin arc was fantastic. Yu is a perfect fit for Hickman, and I loved the non-linear story telling mechanic. Did we ever get an answer to "When you see Tony in his cell tell him ... "? Also another plot thread that never got resolved was Ultron Cap, and him winning the war through time with the bomb eye destroying AI Black Widow. All in all a mixed year, though it ended really strong despite not living up to the Universal Avengers hopes of the first year. The craft of the issues did lose its Hickman-esque voice during the Evil Avengers arc but the stoic methodical authoritarian Hickman personality came back during Original Sin so I was still optimistic.

    Year Three (Time Runs Out - End) - Rushed, Disjointed and Left Me Really Wanting More

    Very much the weakest year. The first issue of time runs out was fantastic. The following issues started to slowly lose Hickman's identity on the title and just begin to sound like standard superhero fare. Whereas with the earlier issues, I can remember the beginning, middle and end of probably each issue by looking at the covers, these issues lack the episodic nature we had at the start of the books and just feel muddled. Also, probably the fact that I am really not a fan of Deodato effected my enjoyment of the latter part of the series. Deodato is fine for dialogue driven issues but he can't draw a fight to save his life in my opinion. The fight between the Avengers, Illuminati and Sunspot Avengers was static and artificial and the death of Starbrand was drawn with literally no tension whatsoever to the point where it made me feel annoyed more than anything. Finally, everything felt very rushed, I mean what's up with Cannonball's child, what is Shang Chi gonna do, what about Validator? These are all things I was hoping we'd address before the big Secret Wars finale. We shouldn't need more ground work during the event itself. Finally, the Galactic Council's attack could have been a fantastic way to finish the book off, give it a nice bookend with Infinity, but that too seemed rushed and a little fillerish.

    That being said, I really enjoyed he final issue. I just wish there was a little bit more. We spent so much time at the start world building and moving at a slow (however enjoyable speed) that it felt really jarring that everything moved at such a blistering pace at the end. I really wish that Avengers and New Avengers would have run with Secret Wars because 8 issues isn't really enough to wrap this series up. I know Secret Wars is going to be great but there will obviously be a lot left to be desired, and, looking at Waid's direction post-Hickman, we're probably never going to get closure for a lot of this team.

    My assessment: Hickman's Avengers started with a bang but ended with a me ultimately wanting more. 7/10
    I echo a lot of what you said. We have to make allowances of Hickman in the first arc because he was world building, so what felt flat was outweighed by the uniqueness of his new world.

    The middle arc was blasť because now Hickman had built his world, now he just filled it with stuff.

    The rushed last arc of TRO, I can understand why Hickman staggered the incidents as well as fast forwarded it to the future, because at the end of the MU it needed to feel like we were rushing at a chaotic speed to the conclusion. If it meandered in a very linear fashion and suddenly it was sprung onto us that shockingly it explodes, I think that would anticlimactic. Demonstrating the helter skelter Rush to the precipice before hand, sets the tone of something bad approaching.
    Last edited by jackolover; 05-02-2015 at 05:22 AM.

  2. #302
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    9,409

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by exiled View Post
    At least it makes sense now why steve went after the Illuminati and never tried to solve the problem. The universe told him and Franklin richards told him there was no hope for the universe. So being helpless in that area he does the one thing he can do. Try to stop the Illuminati and the Cabal from killing worlds.
    What does Steve say in The Avengers movie? "I've walked that line and anytime they find some way to justify themselves using a new weapon, the innocent die". He just falls back to his personal philosophy to save the innocent. Stark finds a way to justify a weapons use.

    It was interesting to see how writers saw the end of the Avengers being two of their greatest locked in battle while an Incursion happens. This is what they see the Avengers doing at the end? It's certainly a memorable moment about the franchise. When you think of the end of the classic Avengers, it was a couple of them fighting.

    Avengers Last Days. Build a life raft; brothers fighting over principles.

    I don't even know where they think the raft is going to go if both universes are destroyed. The Negative Zone? The past? They have some optimistic view they will land somewhere you can restart the human race.
    Last edited by jackolover; 05-02-2015 at 06:01 AM.

  3. #303
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    26,716

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    I noticed the Illuminati changed their approach, but couldn't stop the Cabal publically because the Cabal had the UN's sanction. You could say the Illuminati wanted the Earth to blow up, and the Cabal were delaying that. Eventually the Illuminati got their way.

    Now if Tony had insisted nobody in the Illuminati actively save Earth, Steve and Tony would have been mind wiped. Maybe that would have been better for Tony?
    If literally nothing the heroes did ended up making any sort of difference in the outcome of events you can frankly make an arguement all the Illuminati would have been better off mind wiped.

  4. #304
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,630

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AcesX1X View Post
    how exactly did it "blow up" in doom's face again? he accomplished his goal, he is rabum alal, and is now poised to rule the battleworld with his iron fist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Stacy View Post
    This right here. Nothing blew in his face, he is right where he would want to be even if he doesn't know it yet
    It's what we get out of the side books of SW, the main book that Hickman writes is going to be the main course everyone is going to want to pay attention to. in short wait and see.

  5. #305
    Newbie Member jwckauman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    16

    Default

    Why does Steve hate Tony so bad? What did he really do that warranted him fighting him? It isn't going to fix anything. Seems out of character for Steve to be such a jerk.

  6. #306
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    26,716

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jwckauman View Post
    Why does Steve hate Tony so bad? What did he really do that warranted him fighting him? It isn't going to fix anything. Seems out of character for Steve to be such a jerk.
    If nothing else, Stark trying to murder Steve in Axis probably rubbed Steve the wrong way.

  7. #307
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,921

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    What does Steve say in The Avengers movie? "I've walked that line and anytime they find some way to justify themselves using a new weapon, the innocent die". He just falls back to his personal philosophy to save the innocent. Stark finds a way to justify a weapons use.

    It was interesting to see how writers saw the end of the Avengers being two of their greatest locked in battle while an Incursion happens. This is what they see the Avengers doing at the end? It's certainly a memorable moment about the franchise. When you think of the end of the classic Avengers, it was a couple of them fighting.

    Avengers Last Days. Build a life raft; brothers fighting over principles.

    I don't even know where they think the raft is going to go if both universes are destroyed. The Negative Zone? The past? They have some optimistic view they will land somewhere you can restart the human race.
    Irrc, what he said was, "any time people try to win a war before it starts, people die"

    So basically a condemnation of arms-races.

  8. #308
    Astonishing Member Knives's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    4,510

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jwckauman View Post
    Why does Steve hate Tony so bad? What did he really do that warranted him fighting him? It isn't going to fix anything. Seems out of character for Steve to be such a jerk.
    This is not about changing something or be correct because if so would have left Tony in the lifeboat after all humanity needs your intellect. That's about two different men who have created a great ideal that Steve buy and lived all his life after waking up at present and he believes Tony betrayed everything they built or it was a big lie and if is the case then for what he lived and battled all this time?

    Steve is the man who is respected by his ideals and fight for them without ever go back or sell but he found a wall can not destroy and hate Tony for throwing it all away to survive because he believes those ideals should not be corrupted even in the face of death.


    So this is how it ends or better is how it all begins again.

    Even understand the reasons for the marvel yet read this story leaves a hole in the soul.


    About Tony and Steve think everyone has spoken what had to be said yet do not condemn Steve as some actually perfectly understand his motives and respect what he symbolizes although most people and writers keep saying they are old ideals has not value these days is actually the opposite.

    What I mean is that despite the curiosity was not a pleasant reading.
    Last edited by Knives; 05-02-2015 at 09:36 AM.

  9. #309
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    9,409

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    Irrc, what he said was, "any time people try to win a war before it starts, people die"

    So basically a condemnation of arms-races.
    Okay, I must have got my quote from somewhere else.

  10. #310
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    121

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Will View Post
    This is the problem with not being able to buy your books on a wednesday, everybody's already done discussing!!!

    But serious, how do you go about assessing Hickman's Avengers? I was going to say I'm in two minds about it but I think my opinion is much more multifaceted then that. Ultimately, it was above average, but I do think there were a lot of rushed ideas and brushed over opportunities to make this book what it should have been. I know some people are complaining about length, but really I think this should have been given probably another 6 months to a year to let the third act breath, or at least make a lot of the subplots feel like subplots and not just background tablaeus to May's big event.

    My opinion about the run as a whole:

    Year 1 (Mars to the end of Infinity) - Fantastic Building Blocks to a Whole New Universal take on the Team

    These issues, not only did they feel different to any superhero comic on the stands, they felt like they had character to them, a life of their own. The way that dialogue was paced, Hickman's trademark white title pages, the unique character graph, the overarching cosmic setting. It felt like I was reading a Marvel book, but instead something crafted from Hickman's Image catalogue. Each issue was paced episodically, you could understand the rhythm of the book and you felt there was a specific narrative theme throughout each issue, almost like little pieces were fitting together to make one meta arc. Yes, the Builder War was a little bit of a non-threat, but the status quo that it looked like was going to be shaped -- Universal Avengers and a Multiversal Illuminati -- really got me excited. Much to my dismay however, after the builder threat the book departed from its cosmic side and, strangely in my opinion, focused solely on Earth till its conclusion.

    Year 2 (Rogue Planet - Original Sin) - Slowly Losing the Books Identity but still Strong

    The evil avengers arc was extremely bland. Nothing more really needs to be said. I would have rather had those issues focusing on the newer recruits, or fleshing out the Rogue Planet one shot which felt so rushed. Conversely, I thought the Original Sin arc was fantastic. Yu is a perfect fit for Hickman, and I loved the non-linear story telling mechanic. Did we ever get an answer to "When you see Tony in his cell tell him ... "? Also another plot thread that never got resolved was Ultron Cap, and him winning the war through time with the bomb eye destroying AI Black Widow. All in all a mixed year, though it ended really strong despite not living up to the Universal Avengers hopes of the first year. The craft of the issues did lose its Hickman-esque voice during the Evil Avengers arc but the stoic methodical authoritarian Hickman personality came back during Original Sin so I was still optimistic.

    Year Three (Time Runs Out - End) - Rushed, Disjointed and Left Me Really Wanting More

    Very much the weakest year. The first issue of time runs out was fantastic. The following issues started to slowly lose Hickman's identity on the title and just begin to sound like standard superhero fare. Whereas with the earlier issues, I can remember the beginning, middle and end of probably each issue by looking at the covers, these issues lack the episodic nature we had at the start of the books and just feel muddled. Also, probably the fact that I am really not a fan of Deodato effected my enjoyment of the latter part of the series. Deodato is fine for dialogue driven issues but he can't draw a fight to save his life in my opinion. The fight between the Avengers, Illuminati and Sunspot Avengers was static and artificial and the death of Starbrand was drawn with literally no tension whatsoever to the point where it made me feel annoyed more than anything. Finally, everything felt very rushed, I mean what's up with Cannonball's child, what is Shang Chi gonna do, what about Validator? These are all things I was hoping we'd address before the big Secret Wars finale. We shouldn't need more ground work during the event itself. Finally, the Galactic Council's attack could have been a fantastic way to finish the book off, give it a nice bookend with Infinity, but that too seemed rushed and a little fillerish.

    That being said, I really enjoyed he final issue. I just wish there was a little bit more. We spent so much time at the start world building and moving at a slow (however enjoyable speed) that it felt really jarring that everything moved at such a blistering pace at the end. I really wish that Avengers and New Avengers would have run with Secret Wars because 8 issues isn't really enough to wrap this series up. I know Secret Wars is going to be great but there will obviously be a lot left to be desired, and, looking at Waid's direction post-Hickman, we're probably never going to get closure for a lot of this team.

    My assessment: Hickman's Avengers started with a bang but ended with a me ultimately wanting more. 7/10
    The Avengers issue where Captain America travels through time with the time gem are what I consider the only major flaw in Hickman's work. It's way too meta and the pay off is probably if at all only visible at the conclusion. I loved the episode with Richard Franklin, but other than that I can only say missed opportunity. With Avenger World's lackluster climax, it would have been nice if it had been used more for some TRO background as well.

  11. #311
    Veteran Member jphamlore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,252

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Daeron View Post
    The Avengers issue where Captain America travels through time with the time gem are what I consider the only major flaw in Hickman's work. It's way too meta and the pay off is probably if at all only visible at the conclusion. I loved the episode with Richard Franklin, but other than that I can only say missed opportunity. With Avenger World's lackluster climax, it would have been nice if it had been used more for some TRO background as well.
    Oddly enough the Steve Rogers time travel issues were my favorite, so it can be said I suppose that Hickman succeeded in having a bit of something for everyone in his story.

  12. #312
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,437

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jwckauman View Post
    Why does Steve hate Tony so bad? What did he really do that warranted him fighting him? It isn't going to fix anything. Seems out of character for Steve to be such a jerk.
    This part of the story really did rub me the wrong way. Instead of trying to do anything protective or spend time with his friends or family or something, Steve decides the best way to spend the last few hours of his life having a useless fight against a guy who is also going to die in the next few hours.

    However, I can sort of understand Steve's reasoning. He's angry, he knows he's lost, and he knows that no matter what happens, he's lost. So, he wants to make the one member of the Illuminati he can get his hands on to suffer. It's petty and beneath Steve Rogers, but everyone has their breaking point.

    I'm sure he'll stop sooner or later, probably after the freaking building or whatever it was falls on him and realizes that he needs to stop and go to war.

  13. #313
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    26,716

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    This part of the story really did rub me the wrong way. Instead of trying to do anything protective or spend time with his friends or family or something, Steve decides the best way to spend the last few hours of his life having a useless fight against a guy who is also going to die in the next few hours.

    However, I can sort of understand Steve's reasoning. He's angry, he knows he's lost, and he knows that no matter what happens, he's lost. So, he wants to make the one member of the Illuminati he can get his hands on to suffer. It's petty and beneath Steve Rogers, but everyone has their breaking point.

    I'm sure he'll stop sooner or later, probably after the freaking building or whatever it was falls on him and realizes that he needs to stop and go to war.
    I don't think it was necessarily useless. I think Stark was a wild card which Steve happily volunteered to try and nullify. I think it's part of the reason why they went out of their way to show none of them trusted Stark or wanted him on the life boat.

  14. #314
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    9,409

    Default

    Isn't it a coincidence the last Incursion was centered around NYC so that Ultimate Fury's Helicarriers could directly Attack super humans, instead of coming to Earth-616 in somewhere like Saudi Arabia for instance?

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •