Avengers 44 *SPOILERS*

[jackolover]

This is the only constant in the MU at play: No matter what, the writers will have Caps be right, no matter the retcons, character assassinations or inconsistencies they have to introduce to achieve that.

Caps has been a dick during all the storyline, but in the last page, he has to be vindicated and come as right somehow.

On the point about Cap being always right, if Hickman expected to represent Cap as being right in Avengers#44 fighting Tony, I think Hickman failed to do that. I wanted Cap to be right, mind you, but I was not convinced in this issue. I thought it would be demonstrated without a doubt, Cap was right and the Illuminati were wrong, but I don't think that is clear cut now.

[InformationGeek]

Very nice pics you included there. It was a welcome you chose the Twelve Apostles Incursion, because I've stood there looking up in that sky at that place, so that pic looks scary to me.

So the difference is you wanted other artists giving more shocking, terrified effects on the characters? Considering nothing scares the Illuminati, they were never going to ring their hands and fall down crying, (except that one time they wouldn't pull the trigger on the planet buster).

It's not that though. Let me explain from my perspective and why I don't see this as horror or horror that's not very good. Horror works for me in different ways. Concept/premise, execution, imagery, tone, how the characters react or feel about the situation, and sometimes the dialogue and narration.

Concept/premise alone for me isn't enough, but is a start. Hellstar Nemia (what the second picture is from) has a hell premise with a planet coming towards Earth and destroying everything in its way (including most of the solar system)... before you find out the big twist.

Execution is the big point. You can have the greatest idea in the world, but it means nothing it doesn't come together or if the writer can make it work. Gyo (by the same creator of Hellstar) has a great premise with, "What if a dangerous and lost WWII bio/gas weapon gain sentience and attacked people?" Unfortunately, the results ended up with people farting and burping themselves to death.

Imagery is what I would consider second to or just as equal to execution in a comic. If you are going for horror, the artist should at least be able to convey the horror or creepiness in some fashion or make something look ominous and threatening. New Avengers' issue where Dr. Strange kills the Great Society works with the visuals (though it's undermined because I hated almost everything about the story and characters in that issue, so I wasn't scared), Bel Solomon current possession problems in East of West look creepy, the reveal of Grey Trader in American Vampire, the Cosmic chapter of Uzumaki, or the girl rising out from underneath the bed in the second arc of Higurashi. Art really matters when doing a horror story and unfortunately, Hickman rarely gets artists that are particularly good at conveying horror.

Tone is another important factor to me and unfortunately, the tone is not particularly scary or ominous in this series. There's rarely a moment or if there is, it's not particularly memorable, where the comic builds a tense, foreboding, or creepy atmosphere to it. During all of these incursions, I never feel the tension or direness of the situation.

How characters react and act during the situation also helps to me. It doesn't have to be that characters are constantly afraid or terrified, just something that gives me the idea that find the situation terrifying or nerve wracking. If nothing scares the characters like you say, it's hard for me to feel scared or find their situation scary at all. It cuts the tension, sense of dread, and more.

And that's kind of it to me. I don't find this series to be scary because while conceptual it may be fine, but everything else doesn't work. The execution is weak and I have way too many problems with the story and characters to be terrified. The artwork is not particularly good at conveying horror or the right tone (Kev Walker's style doesn't fit and Simone Bianchi's penciling is horrendous for instance). The tone isn't good, Hickman's writing style and dialogue are awful and so devoid of life and emotion, and more. This just doesn't work for me remotely as a horror comic.


I don't expect people to agree with me (because I'm full of unpopular opinions admittedly), but I hope you get where I'm coming from at least when this just doesn't work to me.

[Roundman]

Cap has been a lunatic for much of this run. I can see him being majorly angered by the mind wipe they did on him. I can see him being fundamentally, intractably opposed to destroying the other Earths. What I don't understand is why he is so angry with Tony for not revealing to him that Tony didn't think the Avengers could stop the incursion situation. Why is that so terrible? Cap wouldn't believe Tony if Tony did tell him that. That's clear in the first 3 or 4 issues of NA. Cap refused to believe that there was no other way to stop incursions other than destroying the other Earths. And why does Cap immediately resort to physical violence so often? For a guy with high ideals, he's quick to punch a (former) friend in the face.

[XPac]

Cap has been a lunatic for much of this run. I can see him being majorly angered by the mind wipe they did on him. I can see him being fundamentally, intractably opposed to destroying the other Earths. What I don't understand is why he is so angry with Tony for not revealing to him that Tony didn't think the Avengers could stop the incursion situation. Why is that so terrible? Cap wouldn't believe Tony if Tony did tell him that. That's clear in the first 3 or 4 issues of NA. Cap refused to believe that there was no other way to stop incursions other than destroying the other Earths. And why does Cap immediately resort to physical violence so often? For a guy with high ideals, he's quick to punch a (former) friend in the face.

Funny thing was Captain Universe was just as mad. With Steve there were at least personal reasons, but for some reason the Universe itself was angry at Tony for that.

[eaebiakuya]

Cap has been a lunatic for much of this run. I can see him being majorly angered by the mind wipe they did on him. I can see him being fundamentally, intractably opposed to destroying the other Earths. What I don't understand is why he is so angry with Tony for not revealing to him that Tony didn't think the Avengers could stop the incursion situation. Why is that so terrible? Cap wouldn't believe Tony if Tony did tell him that. That's clear in the first 3 or 4 issues of NA. Cap refused to believe that there was no other way to stop incursions other than destroying the other Earths. And why does Cap immediately resort to physical violence so often? For a guy with high ideals, he's quick to punch a (former) friend in the face.

I agree.

Captain also hunted down Illuminates while they tried to save the universe. Captain is the big villan of the saga.

[marcbret1987]

On the point about Cap being always right, if Hickman expected to represent Cap as being right in Avengers#44 fighting Tony, I think Hickman failed to do that. I wanted Cap to be right, mind you, but I was not convinced in this issue. I thought it would be demonstrated without a doubt, Cap was right and the Illuminati were wrong, but I don't think that is clear cut now.

I definitely agree with this. How is Cap vindicated? Doesn't seem like that at all to me.

[XPac]

On the point about Cap being always right, if Hickman expected to represent Cap as being right in Avengers#44 fighting Tony, I think Hickman failed to do that. I wanted Cap to be right, mind you, but I was not convinced in this issue. I thought it would be demonstrated without a doubt, Cap was right and the Illuminati were wrong, but I don't think that is clear cut now.

I don't think the idea was for anyone to come out of this event smelling like roses.

I think Steve ended up being right about not blowing up planets in principal. So at least in contrast to the Illuminati he doesn't carry around the guilt of directly or indirectly being responsible for the deaths of billions of innocent people. But you can credibly argue he came off looking bad hunting the Illuminati, though it literaly took 5 seconds to convince him to work with them.

I don't think Steve came off looking good... though I also think he'll have an easier time sleeping at night over the things he did and the choices he made than the Illuminati will. More than anything that's the difference.

[vitruvian]

Actually Steve is kind of justified. Tony knew none of this would work all along, and basically let everyone spin their wheels. He mislead the entirety of the Avengers. I'd be furious too.

How would Tony know that for sure, is the question. Did he have some special knowledge about it being Doom and the Beyonders behind everything (or even better, a line into Hickman's brain), or was he just uncharacteristically pessimistic? Because in the absence of some special knowledge not accessible to the rest of the Illuminati, I don't know that I'd weight his opinion any higher than Reed's or T'Challa's.

[vitruvian]

This too. Steve has guessed Tony knew all along this couldn't be stopped and Tony pretty much confirms that. That's.....dickish behavior even for inverted Tony.

If it's all along, it extends quite a bit prior to the inversion, though.

I'm still stuck on how Tony would know this, though. To me, the verb know implies that you have evidence for your opinion, so I'd want to know what evidence Tony had (or understood) that Reed, T'Challa, etc. didn't.

Also, if Tony was truly that certain that everything they were doing was futile, why did he go through the motions, either with the Avengers Machine or even with the Illuminati, at all? Why bother with the new version of Extremis in San Francisco, or do anything but let himself have one last binge before the end?

[Username taken]

If it's all along, it extends quite a bit prior to the inversion, though.

I'm still stuck on how Tony would know this, though. To me, the verb know implies that you have evidence for your opinion, so I'd want to know what evidence Tony had (or understood) that Reed, T'Challa, etc. didn't.

Also, if Tony was truly that certain that everything they were doing was futile, why did he go through the motions, either with the Avengers Machine or even with the Illuminati, at all? Why bother with the new version of Extremis in San Francisco, or do anything but let himself have one last binge before the end?

Same questions I've been asking too and that's my fundamental problem with the conflict between Tony and Steve.

Yes, Steve is right to be angry that Tony mind wiped how but how and why exactly is Steve so sure that Tony knew with absolute certainty that whatever they tried wouldn't work?

[vitruvian]

How is that false? T'challa was the one that pulled the trigger in the Latveria incursion. The bottom line is the Illuminati used the same slippery slope the UN used.... and I don't entirely fault it because it made sense.

What I do fault is T'Challa faulting the UN for what happened to Wakanda when frankly that was more his fault than theirs. And it's not like the UN could have done anything about Thanos even if they tried so I don't really know what he expects here.

It's false that the Illuminati (apart from Namor and conceivably Strange) were willing to pull the trigger on inhabited planets. The slope below blowing up uninhabited worlds, which isn't even arguably wrong in itself, turned out not to be slippery at all.

[vitruvian]

You guys realise it was a horror story, don't you? Horror stories don't have happy endings. The end of this one was the end of the entire multi-verse, what more do you want?

Plenty of horror stories have happy endings for at least some of the protagonists, as a matter of fact... and since we know that lots of Marvel characters will survive on Battleworld, and almost certainly that at least one familiar universe with an Earth in a solar system in a larger cosmos will be restored or recreated (from Rage of Ultron being set after Secret Wars), that would be the case here as well.

[Biclopcicle]

If it's all along, it extends quite a bit prior to the inversion, though.

I'm still stuck on how Tony would know this, though. To me, the verb know implies that you have evidence for your opinion, so I'd want to know what evidence Tony had (or understood) that Reed, T'Challa, etc. didn't.

Also, if Tony was truly that certain that everything they were doing was futile, why did he go through the motions, either with the Avengers Machine or even with the Illuminati, at all? Why bother with the new version of Extremis in San Francisco, or do anything but let himself have one last binge before the end?

Exactly. was tony somehow privy to some information that no one else was? I don't think the Tribunal corpse counts, because that was after he formed the Avengers machine. Based on the dialog, he was just more pessimistic than the rest of the Illuminati, no secret knowledge. And Rogers expected Tony to share that pessimism openly with the Illuminati and the Avengers to obviate the hamster wheel the Avengers and Rogers had been on

[vitruvian]

You really thought that they might survive? Even though Hickman's been repeating "Everything dies" over and over? Even with Secret Wars announced? If so, IMO the fault wasn't in the story.

Since there will be living beings on Battleworld, Hickman's repeated statement is false.

[XPac]

How would Tony know that for sure, is the question. Did he have some special knowledge about it being Doom and the Beyonders behind everything (or even better, a line into Hickman's brain), or was he just uncharacteristically pessimistic? Because in the absence of some special knowledge not accessible to the rest of the Illuminati, I don't know that I'd weight his opinion any higher than Reed's or T'Challa's.

I don't think anyone should necessarily weight his opinion higher than Reeds. But I suppose you can argue if he genuinely had a different perspective than Reed, he perhaps should have approached things differently. It may go back to that whole bit from Val about working on not losing since they can't win. Reed and T'Challa were trying to win. If Stark believed that wasn't possible, maybe he should have worked on not losing.