Avengers 44 *SPOILERS*

[Webhead]

Next issue will be off the hook and I guess we will find out if Tony is still inverted in TRO

Next ish is the last one, right? I was enjoying the series. If I had to guess, Tony will not be "uninverted" but humbled enough to slowly start to regain his conscience and eventually turn into his 'good' personality again.
Or SW just reverts him somehow.

[JusticeLeagueMexico]

I've been re-reading past issues of this run and taking Superior Iron Man into account, I'm beginning to think Tony is not still inverted. I think he's being more arrogant than usual because the stakes are so high. He's such an a-hole in Superior and I dont see that version of him sitting down to try to explain himself to Steve.

[XPac]

Ok, how do you think Wakandans even allowed T'Challa on their property then?

Obviously T'Challa and Shuri reconcilled at some point in the 8 month time jump. In the least after the Cabal destroyed Wakanda. Possible during, or possibly even before. Hard to say.

And maybe he did try and stop the Cabal. Maybe a whole bunch of heroes did. I don't know, because the story doesn't tell us. In the least it would appear if they DID try stopping the Cabal at least at that point, they stopped trying to stop them by the time we got to the time jump. Whether or not they can stop them or even should at least at that point may be factors in that.

[XPac]

so tony is just a manipulative sob...well damn. That is a more realistic approach to the character than another super-noble, static Kal-El type. So I wonder if Axis and the current story arc in Superior Iron Man is a strategem to get rid of 616 Tony...make him unpalatable...

It's interesting that inverted Tony a lot of the time (though not all the time) isn't THAT different. There are many instances in Hickmans books where you wouldn't even know he was inverted if you didn't read Axis. Obviously in Axis and in is own book there are times it's obvious that he's different, but the point being the different is nowhere near as extreme as a lot of the other inverted heroes we saw in Axis.

And if inverted Stark isn't really that different, it does sort of indicate that regular Stark doesn't exactly wear a halo over his head. Instead of going from white to black, he went from lighter grey to darker grey. Bottom line is that Stark is a legit hero... but he also a shady manipulative SOB. And that's probably a good thing as we don't want every hero being Steve Rogers or Peter Parker.

[Kurolegacy]

Next ish is the last one, right? I was enjoying the series. If I had to guess, Tony will not be "uninverted" but humbled enough to slowly start to regain his conscience and eventually turn into his 'good' personality again.
Or SW just reverts him somehow.

Well based on Remender the inversions aren't permanent and do eventually wear off.

[TheORKINMan]

Honestly I feel like the past 3-4 years have absolutely ruined the characterization of most of the main Avengers and other major Marvel characters. Other than Steve who is still portrayed poorly many high profile Marvel characters are just flat out bad guys lying to themselves about it.

[AcesX1X]

Well based on Remender the inversions aren't permanent and do eventually wear off.

really? that's terrifying, so why is sabretooth still with the avengers in rage of ultron. i pray to god he's not around any women or children when his inversion wears off.

[Emma's Midriff]

really? that's terrifying, so why is sabretooth still with the avengers in rage of ultron. i pray to god he's not around any women or children when his inversion wears off.

Even when it wears off, in a Remender book the characters will say "Oh well, still better than Cyclops!"

[Random4]

is Ultimate Reed smarter then like the whole 616 Illuminati combined or something...cause it sure seems like he is

[Emma's Midriff]

is Ultimate Reed smarter then like the whole 616 Illuminati combined or something...cause it sure seems like he is

Probably. The Illuminati do dumb stuff all the time.

[jackolover]

This is an important piece of the issues not many have touched on. Even closing in on the end of everything Stark was still lying that something could be done when he knew it couldn't and Steve was trying to listen and then the universe turned against him and called him a liar. The universe took Cap's position. The difference between Stark and the rest of the illuminati and avengers were they were trying to solve the problem while Tony just had them spinning their wheels for what? Who knows, fun sick pleasure, an experiment. He watched his friends give up their ideals and morality for no reason. They were just hamsters in a wheel to him. Inverted or not he wasn't a good person. He was lying to everyone and letting Reed and the others become monsters for zero reason. He even said Reed had optimism and that's why he tried. In the end Stark was the biggest villain in marvel because he was doing everything for zero reason and didn't care.If he had told the truth, people may have chosen to spend what was left of their lives doing other and better things. In the end it's about who we are as a person not what we do because everyone dies. My personal opinion is Tony wanted to have everyone fall from grace to prove they were as bad as him. We don't know how he exactly knew only that he did because he admitted it and the universe stated it. Steve helped get the arc set up for what could survive but never planned to go himself and then with what was left of his life wanted to confront the monster that hid all these years as a friend because Tony flew in the face of everything he believed in. The final battle was true good verses true evil as the world fell apart around them

That's how I at least interpreted the one was life and one was death line over and over.

Two avengers, two heroes, two friends, but one was pure good and one was pure evil

Also adds another horror element. The evil pretending to be one of the good guys. I will never be able to see iron man again the same way. Even going back to Axis someone like Apocalypse could want to change and be inverted back but not Tony, he ran. The inversion allowed his true nature to surface

No, I don't think anybody was spinning their wheels for nothing. I think the whole Illuminati could have told everybody things are so practically dire that you might as well give up, not just Tony. If Tony was the spokes person for the Illuminati, then yes, Universe and Cap could be shouting at the whole Illuminati, but I wouldnt put this all on Tony.

As to what context we can place Universes outburst, I'd say Universe demanded absolute truthfulness, and damn the consequences, so she deals with absolutes, she can rage about human secrets.

Steve Rogers? Did he want the Illuminati to just inform the world that the world is coming to an end, so it would cause a panic? Sure, the Cabal basically informed the world that Incursions of colliding Worlds was occurring, also, and you know what happened? The UN condoned the destruction and takeover of Wakanda, so that tells you what informing the populace does to their ethics. I wonder what was the worse sin? Informing the world that this monstrosity was going on and would end the world, or, keep it a secret for as long as possible and let people at least live under the ethical umbrella of their social system?

My thinking is that Tony Stark did what he thought would insulate people from morbidity, (a condition approaching death). I can't fault that and do not judge him from that perspective. Inverted Tony? Certainly their is room for criticism, but under the circumstances, why waste your breath. Is Tony Stark the worst super villain the marvel Universe has ever had? You would probably have to record it all in a ledger against other super villains and then you may get a better idea. My feeling is, Tony Stark still comes off black in his ledger.

In fact, you'd have to compare other super heroes ledgers to Tony's as well, so even if Tony has red in his ledger, how many others have red also? I'd say the Marvel Universe Heroes would be fighting to keep their ledges in the black. They were a pretty reprehensible bunch of lovable rogues, the lot of them.

[jackolover]

Future Hawkeye was also angry over something Stark either did or failed to do.

So as far as Stark goes there may be more going on here than we've seeing (or at least I'm seeing).

So this future in which Hawkeye judges Stark as contemptible, (my word), this was before Secret Wars? I think this future gets wiped out pretty soon after the last Incursion. Maybe Stark did something else, that if SW never happened, he did years later that Hawkeye is angry at him for?

[jackolover]

Honestly I think a part of the reason he engaged Stark was just to ensure Stark wasn't going to do anything to screw up their life boat plan. They all clearly didn't trust him. He was a wild card which I think Steve was happy to try and take out of the equation.

Yeah, Steve did come with a swarm of War Machines, but Steve insisted he take down Tony alone, and if he failed, we could see the swarm come down on Tony later. You could be right about the life boat issue bothering Steve, sort of like the Hulk issue sending Banner to Sakaar. So the rage and confrontation about the lying may be all the bluster of combat and have nothing to do with how Steve really feels.

[jackolover]

But keep in mind everyone had been pushed to their limits especially Steve. It was the end of the world and in the last two years he had been trapped for ten years in another dimension, watched his son and love die, mindraped by his friends, betrayed by Nick Fury, lose his youth, realize the mind rape, and learn his closest friend had been playing him and his ideals their whole relationship. Plus the world was ending. He lost all patience in the end. Did the right thing and help with the life raft and then went to confront the man who had been lying to him all along. I completely understand, sympathize, and agree with Steve. Also if Tony wasn't confronted he probably would have stolen the raft just for himself for kicks

In a recent issue Reed even says he is motivated by his family, Steve by his morality and Tony by his arrogance

It's nice to hear the other (Rogers) side of the argument, and how Steve had been systematically broken down by crisis after crisis. I hadn't collected all the pieces of Steves recent journey and kept them in the forefront of my mind, but there is a lot there that brings a person to the exasperation point. I know Cap goes through these cascading crisis quite often, (Steve could have absorbed Ian and Sharon Carters deaths and be relieved once he was reunited with them), but the realisation that this balm of relief was coming to an end and not just he was dying, but everything about the world would die too, could have sent him over the edge. It would be understandable.

[jackolover]

I also don't see Steve as being written as unlikable I see him being written as heroic. When the point of the story is everything dies and their was no solution all you have in the end is your values and what makes you who you are. I think Hickman made the point in the OS tie ins that Steve's values are to do what is right and moral despite the how dire the situation and that Tony didn't have any values or morality while even Reed did to his family and Tony was only playing a game for his amusement. So in the end of everything it was two people one who stood for something and the other who stood for nothing

I think that's still very harsh on Tony. He had people to live for too, (maybe not by the time he stayed inverted), so Tony wasn't a hermit who had nothing to live for. I don't think he was Superior Iron Man for long enough to cast him as that person his whole time in Hickmans Avengers. On some level I suppose Rogers could have just seen Superior Iron Man and not the Tony he once knew.