Avengers 44 *SPOILERS*

[jackolover]

Those weren't his exact words but a few issues ago he and Steve were talking and he said I do what I do for my family and you do what you do because it's right but Tony isn't like us he is a future mind stuck in the present. Something to the affect the world isn't advanced enough for his mind. And in this issue Tony said Reed went along with what the illuminati did because he had hope was optimistic while Tony knew the truth so he was using them but we are left to ask ourselves why he would do that to them when he knew they were sacrificing themselves for nothing.

As to another post I believe Steve went after Tony in the end not for a vendetta but because he was being true to himself and in his last moments wanted to make Tony accountable for his actions, stop the villain and have him face what he had been doing because that is who Steve is, a guy who stops the villains

What's he going to do? Put Tony in gaol? The time when Steves morality was relevant is over. It's like still fighting over who holds the gun after you both fall over the cliff. What does it matter?

[VJ.]

Since there will be living beings on Battleworld, Hickman's repeated statement is false.

That's a new story - this one is finished. Read in isolation with this story, Hickman is correct. (I'm one of those fans that doesn't give a damn about "continuity")

This is a fascinating thread. If nothing else, it's clear that Hickman's run will be discussed for a long time to come.

I think we need to think about this as a piece of literature as opposed to "just" a superhero comic. If you go into this volume of Avengers expecting a fun inspiring superhero comic I can see how Hickman's story would be disconcerting and disappointing. It would be like sitting down for a Harry Potter movie and instead getting Schindler's List.

I know it says Avengers on the cover, but Hickman's Avengers are not the ones we are going to be seeing on the big screen tomorrow. These Avengers are a reflection on the current state of things in the world. Overpopulation, climate change, dwindling resources; if you are paying attention to the world, it's difficult not to have the sense that catastrophe is looming just over the horizon. Stark even voices this as they are working on the avengers machine. We know the status quo is going to change, and probably not for the better. We feel it coming, and we want to do something to change it, but them someone decides that they want to play golf on luscious green grass in the desert and any living creature reliant on Lake Mead finds their days numbered. We come to realize the futility of it all and accept that everything dies.

The poster that said it is about despair hit the nail on the head. In his first Avengers issue, Hickman introduces us to Ex Nihili and Abyss. Those names should give you a pretty clear idea that this isn't the type of story with a happy ending. The conflict isn't an external one between good guys and bad guys. The conflict is an inner one between hope and despair. Do we make a stand against the darkness, or does apathy win.

In the face of hopelessness, are superheroes even relevant? I'm not sure that they are.

I personally loved Infinity. Infinity #5 has one of the best heroic moments I have ever seen, and it doesn't even happen during a battle. It happens afterword in a quiet conversation between Oracle and Cap:

"You held at the behemoth... You turned the world killers on their masters over Hala... And then you broke the enemy with a single man and a hammer that was thrown around the sun... We rallied to you good Captain. We rallied to your standard... Dockrum Vii is free again and it is an Avengers world." Cue the Avengers symbol being raised Iwo Jima style.

P.S. I totally need to see that scene played out on the big screen.

Despite how epic their actions were in the Builder war, it accomplished nothing. The incursions were still happening and just for funsies, Thanos captures the Earth. Down the road, Gladiator, the Avengers staunchest ally in the builder war, makes the only the decision he can. In order to save his people and his universe he sends his fleet to destroy earth.

Hickman has given us an Avengers story for the post-modern depressed masses. It is a superhero story, a cosmic horror story, and a allegory for our times. It can be thick and it does require some work on the reader's part, but it is definitely worth it.

If it is a more classic superhero story you want, check out Kirkman's Invincible. It's fun but poignant and has some of the best hero-villain throwdowns around. After all... It is the best superhero comic in the universe.

This is a brilliant & far more articulate analysis of the story than I could ever write. Thank you.

[Biclopcicle]

is Ultimate Reed smarter then like the whole 616 Illuminati combined or something...cause it sure seems like he is

Yes I think he probably is. He's over 1000 years old now. And he expands his cranium for greater processing power. And yet he was bested by Tony's sentient, tech-interfacing brain tumor lol

[Biclopcicle]

So this future in which Hawkeye judges Stark as contemptible, (my word), this was before Secret Wars? I think this future gets wiped out pretty soon after the last Incursion. Maybe Stark did something else, that if SW never happened, he did years later that Hawkeye is angry at him for?

I don't think the future was erased- future Franklin actually lived through the incursions all the way to 5000 years in the future. Whatever happens in secret wars, it seems the multiverse gets restored (multiversal avengers from avengers world in same issue)

[XPac]

What's he going to do? Put Tony in gaol? The time when Steves morality was relevant is over. It's like still fighting over who holds the gun after you both fall over the cliff. What does it matter?

Possibly. I do think in part at least he wanted Tony out of the way while they were launching their life boat so that he wouldn't interfere or try to get on board. They didn't trust Tony (given that he's inverted that's understandable), so Steve confronting him potentially takes that wild card off the table.

[XPac]

Yeah, Steve did come with a swarm of War Machines, but Steve insisted he take down Tony alone, and if he failed, we could see the swarm come down on Tony later. You could be right about the life boat issue bothering Steve, sort of like the Hulk issue sending Banner to Sakaar. So the rage and confrontation about the lying may be all the bluster of combat and have nothing to do with how Steve really feels.

I think it's all of the above. I think Steve really is pissed off and is venting. But I also think that Steve doesn't trust Stark and wants to ensure he doesn't interfere in their plans. Two for one.

[glennc]

so did tony decapitate steve at the end? because that's what it looks like. how gruesome.

Hope so. Cap has been a dick since Avengers vs X-Men. His pursuit of Cyclops was stupid (character posessed by Universal Deity is not responsible in any sane persons eyes for their actions). In Time runs Out the world has been ending for ever and all Cap has been doing his massaging his own pride and totally ridiculous 'morals' that Tony/the Illuminati haven't been totally honest with him and have been prepared to do anything to save the world. Steve is a soldier he would realise and reluctantly accept that sometimes hard choices need to be made in extreme circumstances. A far more interesting story would have been watching him make those decisions and then wrestle with the consequences of his decisons. Tony forsaw the end and tried to stop it. He may have manipulated the main Avengers to keep them out of the way whilst he was designing world-killers and the like --- but ultimately he was making the 'hard choices'. Cap just comes off as a whining dick with his 'You lied!' spiel whilst Rome burns around them.

[glennc]

What's he going to do? Put Tony in gaol? The time when Steves morality was relevant is over. It's like still fighting over who holds the gun after you both fall over the cliff. What does it matter?

Exactly. And what was Tony's crime? What made him a villain? Lying to the Avengers? Having the temerity to not tug his forelock at Captain America?

[Darth Kal-el]

Tony's crime is he knew from day one they had already lost so why exactly was he building bombs to blow up worlds and watching his friends abandon what they believed in to save the world when he knew it could not be saved.

[Webhead]

Well based on Remender the inversions aren't permanent and do eventually wear off.

Oh damn. Well I echo AcesX1X's feelings on the matter, then.

[shgs]

so why exactly was he building bombs to blow up worlds and watching his friends abandon what they believed in to save the world when he knew it could not be saved.

Because those bombs still kept the earth alive for longer than it otherwise would have lasted.

[XPac]

Exactly. And what was Tony's crime? What made him a villain? Lying to the Avengers? Having the temerity to not tug his forelock at Captain America?

You can argue that Stark trying to murder Steve in Axis alone was enough of a crime for Steve to try and lock Stark up. Yes, Stark was inverted... but he's STILL inverted. That's likely a big part of the reason why no one trusts him. They shouldn't... he's inverted.

[XPac]

Because those bombs still kept the earth alive for longer than it otherwise would have lasted.

But using that logic, why stop the Cabal if they're keeping earth alive longer?

You can't have it both ways and argue that the Illumianti were right to build and use the bombs, but the Cabal are wrong. Both the argument of having the bombs and not using them have merit... but you can't really have it both ways.

If it's wrong then it's wrong and they shouldn't do it. If it's better to keep earth alive as long as possible then allow the Cabal to do just that, because they're probably better at it at this point than the Illuminati are.

[glennc]

Because those bombs still kept the earth alive for longer than it otherwise would have lasted.

This. And it isn't a 'crime' to lie to captain America. Unfortunately so many characters have been written badly of late - to fit in with the requirements of the plot rather than in an intelligent or character consistent way. We had the xmen acting ridiculously since at least schism. Captain America since at least avengers vs xmen.

This latest version of Steve obsessively chasing down Tony for 'nothing' is at least consistent with the mindless pursuit of Cyclops - but it is still stupid and captain America is still being written as a self obsessed fool.

As reed said Tony stark should be the first name on the lifeboat. He is humanity's best builder and humanity needs to build. But cap vetoes it - why? Because his pride is hurt that Tony lied to him? Get a grip. How is this consistent with heroic self sacrificing Steve Rogers? Are we sure Steve isn't the one inverted??

[neohuey89]

Hope so. Cap has been a dick since Avengers vs X-Men. His pursuit of Cyclops was stupid (character posessed by Universal Deity is not responsible in any sane persons eyes for their actions). In Time runs Out the world has been ending for ever and all Cap has been doing his massaging his own pride and totally ridiculous 'morals' that Tony/the Illuminati haven't been totally honest with him and have been prepared to do anything to save the world. Steve is a soldier he would realise and reluctantly accept that sometimes hard choices need to be made in extreme circumstances. A far more interesting story would have been watching him make those decisions and then wrestle with the consequences of his decisons. Tony forsaw the end and tried to stop it. He may have manipulated the main Avengers to keep them out of the way whilst he was designing world-killers and the like --- but ultimately he was making the 'hard choices'. Cap just comes off as a whining dick with his 'You lied!' spiel whilst Rome burns around them.

I think it's a little unfair to make it appear that Steve is being an ass just because. He was in the same group making those hard choices, and that group violated him because his point of view ended up being the point of view that everyone (including Tony) sided on when it was all said and done. Also it's not the first time Tony has done something like this to him, anytime they see things differently Tony has crossed the line to make things go his way. Steve should have been more focused on the issue at hand, but we can't act like the Illuminati didn't do him dirty.