Avengers 44 *SPOILERS*

[PlanetaryDevastation]

This. And it isn't a 'crime' to lie to captain America. Unfortunately so many characters have been written badly of late - to fit in with the requirements of the plot rather than in an intelligent or character consistent way. We had the xmen acting ridiculously since at least schism. Captain America since at least avengers vs xmen.

This latest version of Steve obsessively chasing down Tony for 'nothing' is at least consistent with the mindless pursuit of Cyclops - but it is still stupid and captain America is still being written as a self obsessed fool.

As reed said Tony stark should be the first name on the lifeboat. He is humanity's best builder and humanity needs to build. But cap vetoes it - why? Because his pride is hurt that Tony lied to him? Get a grip. How is this consistent with heroic self sacrificing Steve Rogers? Are we sure Steve isn't the one inverted??

It wasn't just Cap that vetoed him. It was everybody. No one but Reed wanted him on that lifeboat because everybody see him as a danger. And not even going to touch the cyclops argument.

[XPac]

This. And it isn't a 'crime' to lie to captain America. Unfortunately so many characters have been written badly of late - to fit in with the requirements of the plot rather than in an intelligent or character consistent way. We had the xmen acting ridiculously since at least schism. Captain America since at least avengers vs xmen.

This latest version of Steve obsessively chasing down Tony for 'nothing' is at least consistent with the mindless pursuit of Cyclops - but it is still stupid and captain America is still being written as a self obsessed fool.

As reed said Tony stark should be the first name on the lifeboat. He is humanity's best builder and humanity needs to build. But cap vetoes it - why? Because his pride is hurt that Tony lied to him? Get a grip. How is this consistent with heroic self sacrificing Steve Rogers? Are we sure Steve isn't the one inverted??

Again, it's not just Steve that veto's Stark. Pretty much all of them except Reed did... which is understandable since AGAIN he's inverted. Reread Axis, then ask yourself how much you're going to trust an inverted hero on that boat.

Also, it's probably worth noting that it wasn't just Steve ticked off at Stark. Captain Universe seemed pretty peeved as well. That's basically the universe itself taking Steve's side and lashing out at Stark. So there may be more to it than Steve's injured pride (though that likely is a part of it as well).

[glennc]

But using that logic, why stop the Cabal if they're keeping earth alive longer?

You can't have it both ways and argue that the Illumianti were right to build and use the bombs, but the Cabal are wrong. Both the argument of having the bombs and not using them have merit... but you can't really have it both ways.

If it's wrong then it's wrong and they shouldn't do it. If it's better to keep earth alive as long as possible then allow the Cabal to do just that, because they're probably better at it at this point than the Illuminati are.

The illuminati were only prepared to use their world killing devices to prevent the imminent destruction of the earth. The cabal were killing planets which hadn't yet directly threatened the earth. This is a huge moral difference.

[XPac]

The illuminati were only prepared to use their world killing devices to prevent the imminent destruction of the earth. The cabal were killing planets which hadn't yet directly threatened the earth. This is a huge moral difference.

The moment the incursion begins, the other planet is directly threatening the earth.

[PlanetaryDevastation]

The illuminati were only prepared to use their world killing devices to prevent the imminent destruction of the earth. The cabal were killing planets which hadn't yet directly threatened the earth. This is a huge moral difference.

No. They used it on incursions as they occurred. Not preemptively.

[glennc]

Inverted or not, trust worthy or not, you'd rather have stark on the boat building things than not.

[XPac]

Inverted or not, trust worthy or not, you'd rather have stark on the boat building things than not.

That's a matter of opinion. Reed felt that way. No one seemed to, including arguably Starks best friend.

[PlanetaryDevastation]

That's a matter of opinion. Reed felt that way. No one seemed to, including arguably Starks best friend.

Yeah. Everybody saw Stark as someone who should not be on that boat because of the changes he underwent.

[glennc]

Yeah. Everybody saw Stark as someone who should not be on that boat because of the changes he underwent.

But that's sort of my point. Characters being written to fit a narrative rather than in any sort of consistent or sensible way. These characters have known stark for decades. He has personally saved their lives dozens of times- and they have saved his. They know him. They know what he is capable of. Even if they are distrustful of the current amoral Tony stark the idea that they wouldn't want him on a mission to rebuild humanity is laughable.

[vitruvian]

That's a new story - this one is finished. Read in isolation with this story, Hickman is correct. (I'm one of those fans that doesn't give a damn about "continuity")

If that's the case, then the statement "Everything Dies" is even less correct and more false. Everything has not died.

[PlanetaryDevastation]

But that's sort of my point. Characters being written to fit a narrative rather than in any sort of consistent or sensible way. These characters have known stark for decades. He has personally saved their lives dozens of times- and they have saved his. They know him. They know what he is capable of. Even if they are distrustful of the current amoral Tony stark the idea that they wouldn't want him on a mission to rebuild humanity is laughable.

Are you reading Superior Iron Man because the last issue raises questions about whether that plan is a good idea.

[XPac]

But that's sort of my point. Characters being written to fit a narrative rather than in any sort of consistent or sensible way. These characters have known stark for decades. He has personally saved their lives dozens of times- and they have saved his. They know him. They know what he is capable of. Even if they are distrustful of the current amoral Tony stark the idea that they wouldn't want him on a mission to rebuild humanity is laughable.

He attempted to murder Steve in axis. Having a guy that could potentially try and murder you is a valid reason to leave him off the boat. Which isn't to say there aren't valid reason to include him as well, but ultimately everyone weight the risk versus reward and made the call they did.

[vitruvian]

If T'challa's line was that he feared who he would becone, I would agree with your interpretation. But because he stated he was remembering the man he was, that to me indicates he already believes he us a different person.

Remember we are using a slide as an analogy. There are degrees involved.

What about blowing up an empty world in and of itself and not having anything to do with what he might do if facing an Incursion with an inhabited Earth made him a different person, then? I'm still not seeing an answer to this.

[XPac]

What about blowing up an empty world in and of itself and not having anything to do with what he might do if facing an Incursion with an inhabited Earth made him a different person, then? I'm still not seeing an answer to this.

And I'm still waiting for an answer as to why it was false of me to say they destroyed planets when uninhabited planets are still planets. But like I said, if you view that scene differently we can agree to disagree.

[jphamlore]

Ultimate Reed should replace 616 Reed who has been shown to be completely useless. 616 Reed refuses to both learn magic and up his scientific game to reduce magic to science. At least Ultimate Reed has the will to reduce magic to science enough to kill the Ultimate Asgardians.

In Hickman's Fantastic Four storyline one version of future Franklin seemed to do just fine after being orphaned, so it's not like 616 Reed is essential. I still think 616 Reed, because he was destined to be killed off by the Mad Celestials, before future Franklin altered the timeline, is now locked into now being ineffective. He's dead weight.