Avengers 44 *SPOILERS*

[XPac]

Ultimate Reed should replace 616 Reed who has been shown to be completely useless. 616 Reed refuses to both learn magic and up his scientific game to reduce magic to science. At least Ultimate Reed has the will to reduce magic to science enough to kill the Ultimate Asgardians.

In Hickman's Fantastic Four storyline one version of future Franklin seemed to do just fine after being orphaned, so it's not like 616 Reed is essential. I still think 616 Reed, because he was destined to be killed off by the Mad Celestials, before future Franklin altered the timeline, is now locked into now being ineffective. He's dead weight.

Though Ultimate Reed is arguably more versatile than 616 Reed, there are plenty of downsides to him as well which potentially makes the trade off rather poor.

[vitruvian]

And I'm still waiting for an answer as to why it was false of me to say they destroyed planets when uninhabited planets are still planets. But like I said, if you view that scene differently we can agree to disagree.

That part wasn't false... the part where you equated it to what the Cabal were doing was.

[RobinFan4880]

So what I'm getting at is that everything was for nought? Nothing was going to stop to the incursions? Everyone was doomed from the beginning? Everything we've read and seen happen was pointless because "everything dies"? What kind of story is that?!

Also, I called it. There was no ending for this comic. The story just stops. You want an ending? Go read Secret Wars and give us more money! Ugh.

The story doesn't just stop. The story continues in Secret Wars, which will most likely just be a continuation of the Avengers and the New Avengers under a logo. Just think of Secret Wars #1 as Avengers #45.

[shgs]

But using that logic, why stop the Cabal if they're keeping earth alive longer?

You can't have it both ways and argue that the Illumianti were right to build and use the bombs, but the Cabal are wrong. Both the argument of having the bombs and not using them have merit... but you can't really have it both ways.

If it's wrong then it's wrong and they shouldn't do it. If it's better to keep earth alive as long as possible then allow the Cabal to do just that, because they're probably better at it at this point than the Illuminati are.

1) I never argued the Cabal should have been stopped.
2) Even if the Illuminati had only ever used the bombs on uninhabited Earths and let themselves be destroyed as soon as another populated Earth was about to crash into them, they would still have kept the Earth alive for that little bit longer. Remember I was responding to this: 'Tony's crime is he knew from day one they had already lost so why exactly was he building bombs to blow up worlds and watching his friends abandon what they believed in to save the world when he knew it could not be saved.' So Tony's crime is apparently delaying the destruction of the Earth because he knew it would eventually be destroyed. If Tony had just done nothing it would be like not saving a drowning person because they were going to die eventually anyway.

[XPac]

That part wasn't false... the part where you equated it to what the Cabal were doing was.

It was a comparison to the UN not aiding Wakanda, not the Cabal.

[vitruvian]

It was a comparison to the UN not aiding Wakanda, not the Cabal.

That has even less relevance. In the one case, we have a world body failing to prevent genocide; on the other, we have somebody blowing up an empty rock in order to save all life in two universes. No comparison.

[XPac]

1) I never argued the Cabal should have been stopped.
2) Even if the Illuminati had only ever used the bombs on uninhabited Earths and let themselves be destroyed as soon as another populated Earth was about to crash into them, they would still have kept the Earth alive for that little bit longer. Remember I was responding to this: 'Tony's crime is he knew from day one they had already lost so why exactly was he building bombs to blow up worlds and watching his friends abandon what they believed in to save the world when he knew it could not be saved.' So Tony's crime is apparently delaying the destruction of the Earth because he knew it would eventually be destroyed. If Tony had just done nothing it would be like not saving a drowning person because they were going to die eventually anyway.

It's not QUITE that simple.

Doing nothing is sort of like not saving a drowning person because they ewre going to die eventually anyways. But doing something is sort of like killing person in order to save a drowning person who might eventually die anyways.

[XPac]

That has even less relevance. In the one case, we have a world body failing to prevent genocide; on the other, we have somebody blowing up an empty rock in order to save all life in two universes. No comparison.

In one case we have world body failing to prevent genocide in order to prevent 2 entire universes, including Wakanda, from destruction. In the other we have the Illuminati deciding to blow up planets in order to prevent 2 entire universes from destruction.

My arguement was simply that both entered into a slippery slope where they did things they didn't necessarily believe were moral for the sake of the greater good. The situations aren't identical, but it required the same sort of hard choices.

IMO anyways. If you feel otherwise then fine... agree to disagree.

[vitruvian]

It's not QUITE that simple.

Doing nothing is sort of like not saving a drowning person because they ewre going to die eventually anyways. But doing something is sort of like killing person in order to save a drowning person who might eventually die anyways.

Only some somethings are like that. Blowing up uninhabited Earths isn't, and since Tony was not in fact willing to pull the trigger on Great Society Earth, he wasn't in the end guilty of killing one drowning person to delay another's death.

[vitruvian]

In one case we have world body failing to prevent genocide in order to prevent 2 entire universes, including Wakanda, from destruction. In the other we have the Illuminati deciding to blow up planets in order to prevent 2 entire universes from destruction.

My arguement was simply that both entered into a slippery slope where they did things they didn't necessarily believe were moral for the sake of the greater good. The situations aren't identical, but it required the same sort of hard choices.

IMO anyways. If you feel otherwise then fine... agree to disagree.

Your argument requires that there be something immoral about blowing up a dead world, again, in and of itself, in order to apply to the Illuminati apart from Namor and Strange.

[XPac]

Your argument requires that there be something immoral about blowing up a dead world, again, in and of itself, in order to apply to the Illuminati apart from Namor and Strange.

No, my arguement merely requires that the Illuminati themselves see it as something immoral. Hence Beast suggesting that it can't be that simple and asking if they have more time to find a different sollution EVEN in the dead world. Hence Reed asking if they should vote on it (though they don't). And hence T'Challa remembering the person he was. Again, RE-READ the issue. Even on a dead world they had clear reservations about blowing it up. If you see nothing wrong with it fine... again, I'm not sure I'd lose sleep over it either. But the actual issue itself shows the Illuminati questioning whether or not it's the right thing to do even AFTER they find out it's a dead world. Don't take my word for it... re-read the issue. It's all there.

[jphamlore]

Actually looking at the storyline in New Avengers it's far worse than there being no alternatives for the Avengers or the Illuminati. There were alternatives. Doom found them. Only Doom was worthy because he combined both knowledge of science and magic. And Doom may have actually accomplished something killing off many of the Beyonders.

The heroes were simply wrong keeping their hands "clean" by not exploring black magic. They became willfully ignorant as to the nature of the Multiverse and beyond, and the Multiverse paid for it.

Also Doom figured it all out because he was organized with his data. The heroes were incompetent and incapable of matching the frequency from the Mapmakers to the Molecule Man, whereas Doom was. The heroes also failed to cultivate any sort of relationship to Molecule Man including at one point letting him rot in the Raft even though they knew he at various times wields enough power to shake the universe and beyond, whereas Doom was the one back in Secret Wars who realized just how powerful Molecule Man could be, and treated him with something approaching respect.

And when the heroes try time travel such as Age of Ultron they almost destroy the Multiverse in their incompetence whereas Doom has internalized time travel technology so thoroughly he can create a massive one out of thin air in white space to transport he and Owen Reece to where they need to go. Meanwhile had all of the heroes found themselves in white space with Owen Reece they would have been completely clueless about what to do, or how to do anything in white space.

It's not that there was nothing the "heroes" could do, it was incompetence and arrogance that led them not to do it whereas Doom was left by himself to save the Multiverse. The "heroes" are simply ignorant savages compared to Doom, just like he has always asserted.

[XPac]

Actually looking at the storyline in New Avengers it's far worse than there being no alternatives for the Avengers or the Illuminati. There were alternatives. Doom found them. Only Doom was worthy because he combined both knowledge of science and magic. And Doom may have actually accomplished something killing off many of the Beyonders.

The heroes were simply wrong keeping their hands "clean" by not exploring black magic. They became willfully ignorant as to the nature of the Multiverse and beyond, and the Multiverse paid for it.

Also Doom figured it all out because he was organized with his data. The heroes were incompetent and incapable of matching the frequency from the Mapmakers to the Molecule Man, whereas Doom was. The heroes also failed to cultivate any sort of relationship to Molecule Man including at one point letting him rot in the Raft even though they knew he at various times wields enough power to shake the universe and beyond, whereas Doom was the one back in Secret Wars who realized just how powerful Molecule Man could be, and treated him with something approaching respect.

And when the heroes try time travel such as Age of Ultron they almost destroy the Multiverse in their incompetence whereas Doom has internalized time travel technology so thoroughly he can create a massive one out of thin air in white space to transport he and Owen Reece to where they need to go. Meanwhile had all of the heroes found themselves in white space with Owen Reece they would have been completely clueless about what to do, or how to do anything in white space.

It's not that there was nothing the "heroes" could do, it was incompetence and arrogance that led them not to do it whereas Doom was left by himself to save the Multiverse. The "heroes" are simply ignorant savages compared to Doom.

In hindsight it shouldn't be that surprising that Doom did the best... he beat the Beyonder in the first Secret Wars too.

Probably a good thing he didn't join up with the Illuminati like some speculated he might... they probably would have just slowed him down.

[PlanetaryDevastation]

Actually looking at the storyline in New Avengers it's far worse than there being no alternatives for the Avengers or the Illuminati. There were alternatives. Doom found them. Only Doom was worthy because he combined both knowledge of science and magic. And Doom may have actually accomplished something killing off many of the Beyonders.

The heroes were simply wrong keeping their hands "clean" by not exploring black magic. They became willfully ignorant as to the nature of the Multiverse and beyond, and the Multiverse paid for it.

Also Doom figured it all out because he was organized with his data. The heroes were incompetent and incapable of matching the frequency from the Mapmakers to the Molecule Man, whereas Doom was. The heroes also failed to cultivate any sort of relationship to Molecule Man including at one point letting him rot in the Raft even though they knew he at various times wields enough power to shake the universe and beyond, whereas Doom was the one back in Secret Wars who realized just how powerful Molecule Man could be, and treated him with something approaching respect.

And when the heroes try time travel such as Age of Ultron they almost destroy the Multiverse in their incompetence whereas Doom has internalized time travel technology so thoroughly he can create a massive one out of thin air in white space to transport he and Owen Reece to where they need to go. Meanwhile had all of the heroes found themselves in white space with Owen Reece they would have been completely clueless about what to do, or how to do anything in white space.

It's not that there was nothing the "heroes" could do, it was incompetence and arrogance that led them not to do it whereas Doom was left by himself to save the Multiverse. The "heroes" are simply ignorant savages compared to Doom, just like he has always asserted.

Doom was worthy because Reece saw him as a friend and not the heroes.

[XPac]

Doom was worthy because Reece saw him as a friend and not the heroes.

That was a big part of it. Reed and Doom actually built up a pretty good relationship in Secret Wars... he didn't actually end up screwing Owen like a lot of other villains Doom has worked with in the past.

Though Owen himself also mentions that Reed is the perfect choice, given his experience with both science and magic. And his impressive track record against the previous Beyonder.

And unlike some heroes, he wouldn't necessarily be squimish about murdering god knows how many MM's.

Overall Doom was the perfect choice. Maybe the only choice.