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  1. #61
    "Comic Book Reviewer" InformationGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VJ. View Post
    You guys realise it was a horror story, don't you? Horror stories don't have happy endings. The end of this one was the end of the entire multi-verse, what more do you want?
    I wanted something that was better written and that was actually scary on some level if this was actually a horror story. There's no sense of horror or emotion in anyone, the artwork doesn't often convey the impact or true feel of a cosmic horror story (if this is horror, why was Kev Walker picked to draw this comic? His artwork isn't exactly horrifying or creepy), the comic was way too drawn out, it never felt "scary" or showed elements of cosmic horror until recently, there's no good sense of tension or dread, the characters are not likeable enough to make you care if they live or die (a good horror story makes you feel the people, not make you apathetic to them), and most importantly, it's quite boring and padded.

  2. #62
    Astonishing Member Double 0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Then you can fault every hero on earth except Stark and Steve for nit helping Wakanda if you want. I'd still argue that's not really on the UN. Most heroes don't directly answer to them.
    Why? They weren't told till after the fact.

    If they were outright told, "Thanos is on the loose, fight him off!" I'm pretty sure the Cabal would have had a fight on their hands. See Infinity. Instead of what the UN did, which was have a closed off meeting letting the Cabal loose. And everyone found out after Wakanda was screwed.
    "Race is a social construct, they say. And I remind them that money is a social construct, too. Social constructs have power." — DeRay Mckesson

  3. #63
    Mighty Member shgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VJ. View Post
    You guys realise it was a horror story, don't you?
    So Hickman says, but what about this run actually places it in the genre of horror? It wasn't scary, it wasn't disturbing, it wasn't especially suspenseful. The incursion threat is simply too high concept, abstract and fantastical to create the kind of emotional reaction that horror requires. It isn't horrifying, to put it simply. I don't think having a downbeat ending (by comic book terms) really qualifies as a horror story.

    Edit: InformationGeek beat me to it I see

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by InformationGeek View Post
    I wanted something that was better written and that was actually scary on some level if this was actually a horror story. There's no sense of horror or emotion in anyone, the artwork doesn't often convey the impact or true feel of a cosmic horror story (if this is horror, why was Kev Walker picked to draw this comic? His artwork isn't exactly horrifying or creepy), the comic was way too drawn out, it never felt "scary" or showed elements of cosmic horror until recently, there's no good sense of tension or dread, the characters are not likeable enough to make you care if they live or die (a good horror story makes you feel the people, not make you apathetic to them), and most importantly, it's quite boring and padded.
    I can't really comment, I read NA in trade until TRO and AV only until the end of infinity, then only event tie-ins and then from TRO. It read well for me & NA reads well multiple issues at once. So my experience was different to yours.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by shgs View Post
    So Hickman says, but what about this run actually places it in the genre of horror? It wasn't scary, it wasn't disturbing, it wasn't especially suspenseful. The incursion threat is simply too high concept, abstract and fantastical to create the kind of emotional reaction that horror requires. It isn't horrifying, to put it simply. I don't think having a downbeat ending (by comic book terms) really qualifies as a horror story.

    Edit: InformationGeek beat me to it I see
    It's cosmic horror. Lovecraftian. Where the true horror is that everything you do is pointless. Your enemies were too tough and you were fighting a hopeless fight. That the universe never cared that you were alive and all your achievements, your dreams were nothing. This is classic Lovecraft. You must read or at least heard of cosmic horror.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double 0 View Post
    I mean, that line has been getting used the entire time, even before the run started. Why did everyone believe there would be someone other outcome.

    And I love how they resolved the "One is Life, one is Death" thing. It was Tony's show all along, to the detriment of everyone involved.
    I think people are upset not because 'everything dies' happened, but because all these supposedly integral pieces, all the parts of this narrative machine, turned out to be cargo-cult. There was kind of this notion, implied and inferred, that 'everything matters, watch carefully!', so that when a lot of individual plots and pieces were unsatisfying you forgave it a little bit because you thought it would gain significance and, ultimately, closure in time. And that wasn't the case.

    Still could happen in Secret Wars, but it's pretty doubtful than MOST of the elements will fit. Even the Dr. Doom thing seems, to me, to be a last minute deal, a later addition to make the 'all hope lies in doom' line relevant. The New Avengers issue was essentially expositionally explaining why the pieces didn't fit together perfectly, and it was awkward as a result.

    Ah well. Still an above average run.

  7. #67
    Welcome Back Spidey Kurolegacy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VJ. View Post
    You really thought that they might survive? Even though Hickman's been repeating "Everything dies" over and over? Even with Secret Wars announced? If so, IMO the fault wasn't in the story.
    These are superhero comics. Saying things like that has no meaning. Besides, the fact that Secret Wars is happening and a new universe is coming out on the other side, clearly there's some light at the end of the tunnel.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by shgs View Post
    So Hickman says, but what about this run actually places it in the genre of horror? It wasn't scary, it wasn't disturbing, it wasn't especially suspenseful. The incursion threat is simply too high concept, abstract and fantastical to create the kind of emotional reaction that horror requires. It isn't horrifying, to put it simply. I don't think having a downbeat ending (by comic book terms) really qualifies as a horror story.

    Edit: InformationGeek beat me to it I see
    I personally got all that from the story, but I read it in an unconventional manner (see above). I can see it dragging in singles ; hell, that's why I dropped singles after #4 & then bought missing issues after infinity (yay comixology).

  9. #69
    "Comic Book Reviewer" InformationGeek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deniz Camp View Post
    I think people are upset not because 'everything dies' happened, but because all these supposedly integral pieces, all the parts of this narrative machine, turned out to be cargo-cult. There was kind of this notion, implied and inferred, that 'everything matters, watch carefully!', so that when a lot of individual plots and pieces were unsatisfying you forgave it a little bit because you thought it would gain significance and, ultimately, closure in time. And that wasn't the case.

    Still could happen in Secret Wars, but it's pretty doubtful than MOST of the elements will fit. Even the Dr. Doom thing seems, to me, to be a last minute deal, a later addition to make the 'all hope lies in doom' line relevant. The New Avengers issue was essentially expositionally explaining why the pieces didn't fit together perfectly, and it was awkward as a result.

    Ah well. Still an above average run.
    BINGO! I so couldn't have put it better myself.

  10. #70
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double 0 View Post
    And yet... They didn't.



    And that's why T'Challa was willing to let Obama and the rest of the US die. Fin.
    Except he's not willing to let them die. He's not saving them simply because he can't and pretending otherwise is just a futile attempt at making them feel bad over a very understandable position. Essentially he was sulking.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by InformationGeek View Post
    BINGO! I so couldn't have put it better myself.
    I'm still surprised that you got no cosmic horror vibe from it - even with the selling of souls and destroying of universes. Though I suppose most of that happened in NA, but by the end, they were really the same book.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deniz Camp View Post
    Even the Dr. Doom thing seems, to me, to be a last minute deal, a later addition to make the 'all hope lies in doom' line relevant. The New Avengers issue was essentially expositionally explaining why the pieces didn't fit together perfectly, and it was awkward as a result.
    Hmm, no. I would say very, very little of this story was concocted "last minute" and instead was plotted out far in advance - the Doom reveal, in particular. You can criticize Hickman's run on other fronts but a hastily put-together story it was not.

  13. #73
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Hmm, no. I would say very, very little of this story was concocted "last minute" and instead was plotted out far in advance - the Doom reveal, in particular. You can criticize Hickman's run on other fronts but a hastily put-together story it was not.
    For any readers that didn't read his FF run it might feel last minute. But yeah ... he planted a lot of seeds which paid off down the line.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Hmm, no. I would say very, very little of this story was concocted "last minute" and instead was plotted out far in advance - the Doom reveal, in particular. You can criticize Hickman's run on other fronts but a hastily put-together story it was not.
    I understand why you might think that, but I have my doubts. A lot of the foundational structure was no doubt put together quite early but I think a lot of the details were decided later, which is why the Black Swan's description of The Great Destroyer, and her purpose, didn't really jive with what Doom was doing or his supposed purpose.

    Just my impression, but that element - to me - and the need to explain the contradiction away the way they did, pure exposition, reeks of 'fixing' to me.

    Not a big deal to me in the end, as the internal mechanics or plot points are secondary to my ultimate enjoyment, but there we are.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    For any readers that didn't read his FF run it might feel last minute. But yeah ... he planted a lot of seeds which paid off down the line.
    I think people are mistaking very open ended, very broad statements for genuine 'seeds'. Hickman is smart enough that he works with what he's done and what he's got and what he's given, and he's good enough that it often seems fully intentional. He's a meticulous planner, but he's a capable improviser.

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