Avengers 44 *SPOILERS*

[PlanetaryDevastation]

I'm not going to argue against the being let down talk as I was let down by the stark monster answer.

[Avenger JD]

What is it that Maximus has? Is it the Codex? What do you guys think Thanos and the Cabal are planning?

[Biclopcicle]

Yeah they could have: send every hero they can at him. That's what Steve wanted anyway.

And for everyone who constantly says it was T'Challa's fault for what happened in Wakanda... He didn't cause Maximus or Namor to swerve on the team. That was their decisions. And nobody seems to have an alternative as to where to keep Thanos and the Cabal. Especially since they knew about the Incursion problem and would have returned to Earth if freed anyway..

Only thing TChalla could have done differently was to not say his final goodbyes to Ororo...his absence from the city of the dead after the Great Society incursion is one of the reasons Namor and Maximus were able to get the cabal going...of course Maximus was opening up the living death cage during the incursion... so maybe he would have freed thanos before the incursion was over. Not sure why Black Bolt was trusting Maximus at that point in time anyway

[PlanetaryDevastation]

What is it that Maximus has? Is it the Codex? What do you guys think Thanos and the Cabal are planning?

Probably planning to high jack Reed's ride. I'm not sure how they would know but I'm guessing that they do.

[Double 0]

Only thing TChalla could have done differently was to not say his final goodbyes to Ororo...his absence from the city of the dead after the Great Society incursion is one of the reasons Namor and Maximus were able to get the cabal going...of course Maximus was opening up the living death cage during the incursion... so maybe he would have freed thanos before the incursion was over. Not sure why Black Bolt was trusting Maximus at that point in time anyway

I see that. He could have also died like Shuri, or called in the Illuminati again, but yeah that's a flaw. The Illuminati as a whole screwed up at that moment.

[Double 0]

Probably planning to high jack Reed's ride. I'm not sure how they would know but I'm guessing that they do.

If Thanos goes GTA on the Illuminati, Secret Wars #1 is already comic book of the year.

[runguy]

Why didn't Ultimate Reed just blow up 616 earth rather than Ultimate Fury sending an attack fleet?

[shgs]

It's cosmic horror. Lovecraftian. Where the true horror is that everything you do is pointless. Your enemies were too tough and you were fighting a hopeless fight. That the universe never cared that you were alive and all your achievements, your dreams were nothing. This is classic Lovecraft. You must read or at least heard of cosmic horror.

I've never actually got round to reading any Lovecraft, but obviously I am familiar with many of the ideas and tropes of his work from the way they have percolated through popular culture. From what I know, there is more to Lovecraft than just what you have described above. Let's take if At The Mountains of Madness as an example, since it is one of his best known and the one I know the most about (but again I haven't actually read it, so correct me if I get anything wrong). The protagonists are on an expedition to Antarctica - which even alone without any narrative conceits whatsoever is an isolated and hostile place, perfect for horror - and shortly after arriving they discover a load of slaughtered corpses. I presume, then, that there is suspense and dread created by very tangible threat to the protagonists' safety. They are alone and an unknown creature is more than likely going to try and kill them. The horror isn't simply derived from the hopelessness of their situation and the indifference of the universe, it's also derived from the absolutely, underwear-soilingly terrifying situation they find themselves in. In other words, you still need standard elements of horror to make cosmic horror.

Compare that to Avengers/New Avengers... has it ever felt like any of the protagonists were in any personal danger? I know the entire universe is under threat, but as I said before that's just too abstract a notion to respond to on an emotional level. But this being a superhero comic pretty much undermines any actual terror that the characters (and the therefore the audience) might otherwise have felt. There was always that sense the Avengers would 'win' (even if only up until Secret Wars). One character even 'died' and was revealed not to be dead almost immediately - a standard superhero trope, sure, but one that doesn't mesh well with horror. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if Hickman's run shares thematic elements with cosmic horror, it is how he has told it that defines the genre. It is the difference between reading the plot synopsis of a horror film and watching the actual film: they might portray the exact same plot but the latter is actually horror, the former just describes it.

At the end of the day, cosmic horror without the actual horror - the suspense, the terror, the unease - is just existential science fiction.

[PlanetaryDevastation]

Why didn't Ultimate Reed just blow up 616 earth rather than Ultimate Fury sending an attack fleet?

Presumably because he knows how strong 616 is or so they could pull operation GTA. Thanks Double O. I'm calling it that now.

[PlanetaryDevastation]

I've never actually got round to reading any Lovecraft, but obviously I am familiar with many of the ideas and tropes of his work from the way they have percolated through popular culture. From what I know, there is mroe to Lovecraft than just what you have described above. Let's take if At The Mountains of Madness as an example, since it is one of his best known and the one I know the most about (but again I haven't actually read it, so correct me if I get anything wrong). The protagonists are on an expedition to Antarctica - which even alone without any narrative conceits whatsoever is an isolated and hostile place, perfect for horror - and shortly after arriving they discover a load of slaughtered corpses. I presume, then, that there is suspense and dread created by very tangible threat to the protagonists' safety. They are alone and an unknown creature is more than likely going to try and kill them. The horror isn't simply derived from the hopelessness of their situation and the indifference of the universe, it's also derived from the absolutely, underwear-soilingly terrifying situation they find themselves in. In other words, you still need standard elements of horror to make cosmic horror.

Compare that to Avengers/New Avengers... has it ever felt like any of the protagonists were in any personal danger? I know the entire universe is under threat, but as I said before that's just too abstract a notion to respond to on an emotional level. But this being a superhero comic pretty much undermines any actual terror that the characters (and the therefore the audience) might otherwise have felt. There was always that sense the Avengers would win (even if only up until Secret Wars). One character even 'died' and was revealed not to be dead almost immediately - a standard superhero trope, sure, but one that doesn't mesh well with horror. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if Hickman's run shares thematic elements with cosmic horror, it is how he has told it. It is the difference between reading the plot synopsis of a horror film and watching the actual film: they might portray the exact same plot but the latter is actually horror, the former just describes it.

At the end of the day, cosmic horror without the actual horror - the suspense, the terror, the unease - is just existential science fiction.

No. Lovecraft most famous tale was Call of Cthullu and none of the true horror was in the fact that they were in danger but because the true nature of cthullu. Even Mountain at Madness wasn't about the crew safety but the crew sanity at the mere existence of things beyond their capability. Don't get me wrong the shoggoths and the old ones were scary but the true terror was that the crew was facing something beyond their reality to deal with. That why the scariest moments were describing the things that shouldn't be real or that there is some horrible truth that will shatter your sanity. Like at the end of the Mountain of Madness one of the characters see something that shatters his sanity but is never described. The personal terror is supposed to be the lesser terror to the terror that you are the cosmic equal of an ant or that the events you're facing will break you. Bascially it the equivalent of something that will shatter your sanity, your hopes, your morals or dreams. Everything you believe in will be reduced. A Colder War is a good example. It not meant to scare you, scare you. It meant to make your fear that whole life is a lie and scare you into depression. It's hard to describe.

[Melab]

What is it that Maximus has? Is it the Codex? What do you guys think Thanos and the Cabal are planning?

I want to know why Maximus ended up becoming a bad guy.

[Biclopcicle]

Why didn't Ultimate Reed just blow up 616 earth rather than Ultimate Fury sending an attack fleet?

He already deployed the singularity bomb. He stated that it takes time to work, its slower than an antimatter bomb, which he mocked (I got a laugh out of that part- I mean, Maker is one dude and he's more clever than the entire Illuminati! To be fair, he's 1000 years old as well)

[chaosfist]

Oh sure, but I was hoping for some sort of resolution or some sort of satisfying way to end this comic.



Oh how I wish this was more like Empire Strikes Back.

But yeah... I'm still not impressed that everything has been utterly pointless in the story. None of that alternate Avengers stuff mattered (even though had four months devoted to it), neither did the Builders and Origin Sites, Pod didn't matter, Captain Universe didn't matter, Mapmakers and Black Priests didn't matter, Starbrand didn't matter, Smasher never mattered, Hyperion didn't matter, having characters commit genocide and destroy friendships were all for naught, the entire first half of Time Runs Out didn't matter.... so much pointlessness because everything dies.

So how would you have told the story? Everything was going to end from the beginning. This is a story about how the heroes handle a situation where there really was no chance for saving everything. What makes the story matter any less than the thousands of stories where the heroes save the day? I know I've been entertained throughout the whole run so to me they mattered. As for Secret Wars; It's really just an extension of the story Hickman has been telling the whole time so it could be viewed that way or it could be viewed as a separate event that you have to buy. I know I would buy 8 or whatever it is more issues of Avengers and New Avengers so buying secret wars doesn't bother me in the least. Lastly all the characters etc you bring up could be involved in secret wars.

[PlanetaryDevastation]

I want to know why Maximus ended up becoming a bad guy.

Isn't he usually?

[chaosfist]

You guys realise it was a horror story, don't you? Horror stories don't have happy endings. The end of this one was the end of the entire multi-verse, what more do you want?

If one were to go back and read through the review threads for each issue they would find the same people complaining about the books. Its just how it is.