Avengers 44 *SPOILERS*

[chaosfist]

Really all this is the Ivory Kings and Doom fault.

They are responsible for the situation but theyre not responsible for the way Tony and Steve reacted to it.

[shgs]

No. Lovecraft most famous tale was Call of Cthullu and none of the true horror was in the fact that they were in danger but because the true nature of cthullu. Even Mountain at Madness wasn't about the crew safety but the crew sanity at the mere existence of things beyond their capability. Don't get me wrong the shoggoths and the old ones were scary but the true terror was that the crew was facing something beyond their reality to deal with. That why the scariest moments were describing the things that shouldn't be real or that there is some horrible truth that will shatter your sanity. Like at the end of the Mountain of Madness one of the characters see something that shatters his sanity but is never described. The personal terror is supposed to be the lesser terror to the terror that you are the cosmic equal of an ant or that the events you're facing will break you. Bascially it the equivalent of something that will shatter your sanity, your hopes, your morals or dreams. Everything you believe in will be reduced. A Colder War is a good example. It not meant to scare you, scare you. It meant to make your fear that whole life is a lie and scare you into depression. It's hard to describe.

You say 'true horror' but is Call of Cthulhu actually free of normal horror tropes? I don't really know anything about it, but scanning the synopsis of CoC I see mention of a cult, voodoo, rituals, piracy, lots of death, etc. It certainly sounds like he is using horror tropes to create a sense of tension, threat or unease. I know the point of Lovecraft's stories is that the most horrifying thing is the unknown, and the idea is that we are seeing but the merest fringes of some unknowable horror, but what I am saying is, as far as I can tell, that only works because the stories are told within a framework of a more traditional horror story - the 'true horror' as you call it is presented as being even worse than the conventionally disturbing and scary elements of the story. Genre is all about the context in which the idea of an indifferent, unbeatable universe is presented rather than the idea itself. If Cthulhu appeared in, say, the next issue of Ms. Marvel, it wouldn't be horror because the tone of Ms. Marvel is upbeat and chipper. You can't just have the scary idea on its own, without building up a horror framework to put it in. And that's what Avengers is, it is ideas plucked from cosmic horror but placed within a story that isn't scary in the slightest. It's not even eerie.

But like I said cosmic horror without the horror is basically just existential ideas, only literalised through science fiction.

[PlanetaryDevastation]

They are responsible for the situation but theyre not responsible for the way Tony and Steve reacted to it.

No it all their fault because with that information they could have just fought the Ivory Kings themselves rather than struggle trying to find hope in the hopeless. Everyone could have united against their foe rather than fight aimlessly. They still would have lost but still better than what came thus far.

[Mahes]

No it all their fault because with that information they could have just fought the Ivory Kings themselves rather than struggle trying to find hope in the hopeless. Everyone could have united against their foe rather than fight aimlessly. They still would have lost but still better than what came thus far.

I doubt Cap would be a fan of killing alternate Owen Reece's though. The Illuminati however I suspect would be on board with the plan. Particularly Namor and Strange.

[PlanetaryDevastation]

You say 'true horror' but is Call of Cthulhu actually free of normal horror tropes? I don't really know anything about it, but scanning the synopsis of CoC I see mention of a cult, voodoo, rituals, piracy, lots of death, etc. It certainly sounds like he is using horror tropes to create a sense of tension, threat or unease. I know the point of Lovecraft's stories is that the most horrifying thing is the unknown, and the idea is that we are seeing but the merest fringes of some unknowable horror, but what I am saying is, as far as I can tell, that only works because the stories are told within a framework of a more traditional horror story - the 'true horror' as you call it is presented as being even worse than the conventionally disturbing and scary elements of the story. Genre is all about the context in which the idea of an indifferent, unbeatable universe is presented rather than the idea itself. If Cthulhu appeared in, say, the next issue of Ms. Marvel, it wouldn't be horror because the tone of Ms. Marvel is upbeat and chipper. You can't just have the scary idea on its own, without building up a horror framework to put it in. And that's what Avengers is, it is ideas plucked from cosmic horror but placed within a story that isn't scary in the slightest. It's not even eerie.

But like I said cosmic horror without the horror is basically just existential ideas, only literalised through science fiction.

Cosmic Horror is about that. It is about despair. You're right that if Cthullu showed in Ms. Marvel it wouldn't be horror because it is about hopelessness. The horror is found in the trappings you mention but in the fact that you are literally meaningless and that your time is coming up. Having conventional horror tropes helps but it really about existential horror. If Ms. Marvel had cthullu show up and she fell to her knees and realize it was hopeless and everything was doomed and her life was a joke then that is cosmic horror. Here you have the Beyonders as unstoppable gods destroying everything, the unknowable Black Priests, the heroes are becoming monsters trying to stop it, the world is falling apart and the truth is that they are going to lose. The enemies were too much for them, all their desires to be good was pointless, bodies are piling up and soon it's going to be their bodies and the worst part is they don't even know why. It like staring at an incoming tide wave and realizing there is nothing you can do to stop it or listening to someone crying out for help. Cosmic Horror is about making you despair.

[PlanetaryDevastation]

I doubt Cap would be a fan of killing alternate Owen Reece's though. The Illuminati however I suspect would be on board with the plan. Particularly Namor and Strange.

I don't see why not. They honestly want to die.

[chaosfist]

I think people are upset not because 'everything dies' happened, but because all these supposedly integral pieces, all the parts of this narrative machine, turned out to be cargo-cult. There was kind of this notion, implied and inferred, that 'everything matters, watch carefully!', so that when a lot of individual plots and pieces were unsatisfying you forgave it a little bit because you thought it would gain significance and, ultimately, closure in time. And that wasn't the case.

Still could happen in Secret Wars, but it's pretty doubtful than MOST of the elements will fit. Even the Dr. Doom thing seems, to me, to be a last minute deal, a later addition to make the 'all hope lies in doom' line relevant. The New Avengers issue was essentially expositionally explaining why the pieces didn't fit together perfectly, and it was awkward as a result.

Ah well. Still an above average run.

Why does the Dr. Doom plot feel added on? Doom played a central part of Hickmans FF work. Then he appears rather quickly in NA. Yeah his story line kinda hung there while they did Infinity and the Great Society stuff but he has been front and center in TRO. You say you doubt any hanging plot pieces will be addressed in secret wars but Hickman has been slowly paying these things off. That manifold thing had been hanging since the first issue. The origin sites have been addressed that's where pod came from and where got his replication ability. I thought all the stuff with Bobbys Avengers was being handled in Avengers World but I haven't read it. WTS Hickman has still tried to tie everything together. Seeing Captain Universe again was great and I'm certain she will appear in Secret Wars. The only parts I haven't seen addressed we're the OS tie ins with the time gem. I'm even half expecting to see the superman guy from the Great society to show up again. I know not everyone liked it. There have been long threads about how it wasn't everyonea cup of tea etc, but there are people that have really enjoyed it.

[JusticeLeagueMexico]

Rogers was written like he was inverted. Petty, prideful,vengeful etc. The end of EVERYTHING is on the line and he's only looking for payback! How can Stark be blamed for "knowing" what would happen? He may not have had faith in all the plans, but what if the Illuminati or Sunspot or something else would have worked? Stark is always said to be a futurist but he has been wrong many times in the past. Even when extremis enhanced, he didnt see the skrull invasion or the rise of Osborn or many other things. I didnt like how everyone (including Reed) deferred to Rogers even though he was being so small minded.

[jackolover]

This too. Steve has guessed Tony knew all along this couldn't be stopped and Tony pretty much confirms that. That's.....dickish behavior even for inverted Tony.

So what were the Illuminati doing then? They all knew the same thing Tony knew, right, so this is all on them as well? And how much did Tony know anyway? He knew stopping Incursions was going to delay the end of the world, until it didn't. He didn't know that when he invented the Avengers Wheel. Tony did not invent the Avengers wheel knowing they would spin their wheels. He thought he would save the Multiverse.

[jackolover]

Oh sure, but I was hoping for some sort of resolution or some sort of satisfying way to end this comic.



Oh how I wish this was more like Empire Strikes Back.

But yeah... I'm still not impressed that everything has been utterly pointless in the story. None of that alternate Avengers stuff mattered (even though had four months devoted to it), neither did the Builders and Origin Sites, Pod didn't matter, Captain Universe didn't matter, Mapmakers and Black Priests didn't matter, Starbrand didn't matter, Smasher never mattered, Hyperion didn't matter, having characters commit genocide and destroy friendships were all for naught, the entire first half of Time Runs Out didn't matter.... so much pointlessness because everything dies.

It's good emotion you're showing there. It's the sort of response this sort of sudden ending of everything should elicit. It is horrible, and the only response is that life is pointless.

But then there is Battleworld. Life isn't all pointless, because some mirror reflections of what happened in the Multiverse isn't going away. Sure, seeing two planets crash into each other is going to be traumatic to all the people living on them, because their stories will end, or so they think. The White Heat of destruction will fry each and everyone and ...........

[jackolover]

I mean, that line has been getting used the entire time, even before the run started. Why did everyone believe there would be someone other outcome.

And I love how they resolved the "One is Life, one is Death" thing. It was Tony's show all along, to the detriment of everyone involved.

Yeah? How did that get resolved, "One is Life, one is Death"?

[jackolover]

As for the story itself, Hickman had a great Avengers run but it's over now and im really, really ready for the hero in-fighting to be over. It's time to see our heroes assemble and overcome once more.

It is worth reflecting what the post-Silver Age has meant and what the characters look like when put under pressure. No, they aren't purely heroic. Tony shows his colours when his mortality approaches. Does Steve Rogers show his colours, as the son of a wife beater, who wanted to be the opposite of his father? We could look at all the characters approaching their mortality and wonder is this how we see the final story of all of them? Was the story of the 616 that final battle between Tony Stark and Steve Rogers? Do they represent something primeval, struggling eternally? In a Star Wars allegory, was this Anakin Skywalker and Obewan Kinobi?

[jackolover]

He's the futurist. Plus, I'm not sure about the timing of this but, the moment he saw The Living Tribunal dead, he knew. HE KNEW!

Of course he's no Doom ...

Tony saw the dead Living Tribunal only at New Avengers #8Inf, so that was way down the road from Avengers Wheel, and was that the time Uatu also decided the Multiverse was ended and they both realized they had to put on a brave face till the end, and not let on anything or it would set off a panic? (Uatu couldn't keep it up and let Fury kill him - so Fury, the Unseen just blows up after the last Incursion?).

[jackolover]

That may be so but 77 issues just to get to the point of 'Everybody Dies' is a bit much. It almost feels like Tony was the author avatar for Hickman where he knew it was hopeless from the start with Steve being the audience avatar.

So in your opinion, the better story is in issue #3 of New Avengers, just let Earth be blown up, end of story, Doom isn't the Great Destroyer, Battleworld never happens?

[jackolover]

So Hickman says, but what about this run actually places it in the genre of horror? It wasn't scary, it wasn't disturbing, it wasn't especially suspenseful. The incursion threat is simply too high concept, abstract and fantastical to create the kind of emotional reaction that horror requires. It isn't horrifying, to put it simply. I don't think having a downbeat ending (by comic book terms) really qualifies as a horror story.

Edit: InformationGeek beat me to it I see

There was lots of stabbing on Incursion worlds, with bodies piled high. That's horror enough. Seeing a Planet approaching in the sky, is horror enough. Making Bombs to blow up planets, and using them, is horror enough.

What the 77 books relayed was, what do Heroes do when faced with these horrible choices and what does it do to them? You had to witness the disintegration of ethics that these characters lived by to appreciate the effect this horror movie was having on them and their world. This period of the Incursions wasn't your typical super hero story anymore.

What I couldn't understand was what Steve Rogers internalised about the Incursions. Now that he knows the Incursions lead to destruction, he is content to blame Tony Stark. What for? Because he loves Tony and Tony disappointed him by not letting him in on the secret? That's it? Rage?