Avengers 44 *SPOILERS*

[XPac]

I want to know why Maximus ended up becoming a bad guy.

From Max's perspective, there probably wasn't a huge difference between helping the Illuminati blow up planets to save the universe, and helping the Cabal do it. Apart from maybe the Cabal enjoying it more... but in the grand scheme of things I think Max essentially stayed consistant with his line of thinking. It was actually the Illuminati that changed, not him or Namor.

[Kurolegacy]

So in your opinion, the better story is in issue #3 of New Avengers, just let Earth be blown up, end of story, Doom isn't the Great Destroyer, Battleworld never happens?

No I'm saying that if you're gonna string the reader along for 77 issues it better not be for the sake of 'Everybody dies and there was never anything that could be done about it'. Secret Wars better be worth it for this 3 year cynical story.

[InformationGeek]

There was lots of stabbing on Incursion worlds, with bodies piled high. That's horror enough. Seeing a Planet approaching in the sky, is horror enough. Making Bombs to blow up planets, and using them, is horror enough.

But it really isn't enough. The writing, the tone, the artwork, and the way things are conveyed are not done in a scary, creepy, or even distributing way. Maybe slightly ominous at rare points and certainly dramatic, but it never feels or comes across as scary.

Red color filters and characters moping and waxing philosophical do not make things scary:



This is how you make a planet approaching in the sky scary (okay, it's not a planet, but it is a planet size being):

[PlanetaryDevastation]

Rogers was written like he was inverted. Petty, prideful,vengeful etc. The end of EVERYTHING is on the line and he's only looking for payback! How can Stark be blamed for "knowing" what would happen? He may not have had faith in all the plans, but what if the Illuminati or Sunspot or something else would have worked? Stark is always said to be a futurist but he has been wrong many times in the past. Even when extremis enhanced, he didnt see the skrull invasion or the rise of Osborn or many other things. I didnt like how everyone (including Reed) deferred to Rogers even though he was being so small minded.

I want to believe it one of the flaws of continuity because no one wanted Stark in charge except for Reed because they think he became a monster. Kinda of why the illumanti doesn't trust him. No one. Not even Rhodes or Sue or Beast want him on that ark. I think it supposed to be what is going on over in Superior Iron man. But yeah this was a weakpoint in hickman's writing.

[XPac]

I want to believe it one of the flaws of continuity because no one wanted Stark in charge except for Reed because they think he became a monster. Kinda of why the illumanti doesn't trust him. No one. Not even Rhodes or Sue or Beast want him on that ark. I think it supposed to be what is going on over in Superior Iron man. But yeah this was a weakpoint in hickman's writing.

If he's inverted it makes sense that no one trusts him.

[Melab]

From Max's perspective, there probably wasn't a huge difference between helping the Illuminati blow up planets to save the universe, and helping the Cabal do it. Apart from maybe the Cabal enjoying it more... but in the grand scheme of things I think Max essentially stayed consistant with his line of thinking. It was actually the Illuminati that changed, not him or Namor.

I'm saying that it seems random to have him picked out as a guy would have no reservations about this. He has no history. He was a minor character before all of this. Namor, on the other hand, has a history of moral ambiguity.

[rukkis]

From Max's perspective, there probably wasn't a huge difference between helping the Illuminati blow up planets to save the universe, and helping the Cabal do it. Apart from maybe the Cabal enjoying it more... but in the grand scheme of things I think Max essentially stayed consistant with his line of thinking. It was actually the Illuminati that changed, not him or Namor.

I'm saying that it seems random to have him picked out as a guy would have no reservations about this. He has no history. He was a minor character before all of this. Namor, on the other hand, has a history of moral ambiguity.

I thought Maximus was trying to remove Black Bolt from the equation so that he could be the Inhuman king if & when this all wraps up. I kind of remember him saying something to that effect in panel.

[Melab]

I thought Maximus was trying to remove Black Bolt from the equation so that he could be the Inhuman king if & when this all wraps up. I kind of remember him saying something to that effect in panel.

I looked Max up on Wikipedia and it turns out he has always been a villain, so I retract my comments about him. Still seems like it came out of left-field.

[sammy_hansen]

You guys are reading comics by a publishing company that has for years repeatedly killed off characters only to bring them back to life a few years later. And you're still reading its output. And you're concerned that a comic run doesn't have a "happy ending" where the heroes save the world? That perhaps it goes against that simple trope and tries to tell a different story. I'd say go look up James Bond if you want that kind of storytelling.

[chaosfist]

No I'm saying that if you're gonna string the reader along for 77 issues it better not be for the sake of 'Everybody dies and there was never anything that could be done about it'. Secret Wars better be worth it for this 3 year cynical story.

I'm glad there isn't a way for the heroes to save everything in the last moments. It's meant to be about what how people respond to impossible situations. Did you really need to see the Avengers puuch out the beyonders and save the day?

[Moose100]

Whooooaa! Mindblowing exchange between Tony and Steve!!!

Like Holy Crap for real!

[sammy_hansen]

I'm glad there isn't a way for the heroes to save everything in the last moments. It's meant to be about what how people respond to impossible situations. Did you really need to see the Avengers puuch out the beyonders and save the day?

Nah, Stark obviously should've built some Beyonder Nullfier Gauntlet thing. Then given it to Steve.

[Moose100]

I'm glad there isn't a way for the heroes to save everything in the last moments. It's meant to be about what how people respond to impossible situations. Did you really need to see the Avengers puuch out the beyonders and save the day?

Nope. THis is the second, the end of the second act of HIckman's megaarc. THey can lose only to "win" somehow in the closing moments of Secret Wars. THe thing is things aren't going to be the same moving forward that much is very clear.

[shgs]

There was lots of stabbing on Incursion worlds, with bodies piled high. That's horror enough. Seeing a Planet approaching in the sky, is horror enough. Making Bombs to blow up planets, and using them, is horror enough.

Was it though? Think back to when Namor blows up the planet just before he splits off and forms the Cabal. What was horrifying about that? 7 billion people dead (presumably) and do we see an single one of them? Of course not, we just see a planet explode. There is absolutely no effort to communicate the scale or horror of all that death. It wouldn't have been hard - all it would have taken would be to have a page or two with panels in major cities around the world and people going about their business, then obliteration. But they didn't show this, and they didn't show it for a reason: because Hickman didn't actually want to horrify the readers. Avengers is no more horror than Star Wars is for showing the destruction of Alderaan. Tone and context is absolutely key.

[VJ.]

There was lots of stabbing on Incursion worlds, with bodies piled high. That's horror enough. Seeing a Planet approaching in the sky, is horror enough. Making Bombs to blow up planets, and using them, is horror enough.

Pretty much agree with this^^

Was it though? Think back to when Namor blows up the planet just before he splits off and forms the Cabal. What was horrifying about that? 7 billion people dead (presumably) and do we see an single one of them? Of course not, we just see a planet explode. There is absolutely no effort to communicate the scale or horror of all that death. It wouldn't have been hard - all it would have taken would be to have a page or two with panels in major cities around the world and people going about their business, then obliteration. But they didn't show this, and they didn't show it for a reason: because Hickman didn't actually want to horrify the readers.

Really? I was pretty horrified - I don't need pictures to show me planet full of dead people to find it sickening; and the whole great society arc spelt out what it meant ethically if you didn't already understand the consequences.