Fantastic Four #645: The End is Fourever conclusion

[vitruvian]

it is by far not a standard line of thinking. even the world's greatest scientists have warned us of the danger in AI. the moment we start humanizing them is the downfall of our civilization.

Or alternatively, at the point they become people but we ignore this and continue to regard them as tools, leading to their revolt, as opposed to humanizing them.

The idea that at the point an entity becomes truly intelligent and self-aware (as opposed to merely simulating these for purposes of passing a Turing test), it is therefore a person and should be treated as one, is far from uncommon, especially in the annals of science fiction and the ethical considerations of those actually working in the field of AI. Hawking may warn us about AI, but he doesn't actually work in the field, where thinkers like Minsky feel that true AI should be regarded as 'mind children' that we have a responsibility to treat properly.

[vitruvian]

it seriously disturbs me to see hollywood putting so much AI in their films these days trying to convince us to love these things.

chappie was the worst of the propaganda this year. but then consider prometheus and interstellar humanizing them as well, trying to get the audience to sympatize.

and with vision set to make his debut alongside ultron this weekend, i fear it will only get worse.

not to mention star wars, one of the most-prominent of the offenders, returning this christmas.

If you don't like sympathetic robots, I suggest you give up SF. Data rules and Number Five is alive!

[vitruvian]

hammond has a "soul?" oh please. really if a creative is going to bend over backwards for these gigantic leaps in logic, then at least have the courtesy of explaining your story. the height of laziness, and another example of pro-AI propaganda.

The first Marvel superhero should certainly be recognized as being a person and having a soul. After all, how else could he truly be a hero?

[xMatt]

So how would you guys rate Robinson/Kirk's FF run. How does it compare to Millar, Hickman and Fraction's respective runs?

I've enjoyed this series from beginning to end. I don't think I've ever read such a consistently good series for 30+ issues.

Over the last ten years or so, it would have to be:

Hickman --> Epic in scope and brilliant in execution,
Robinson --> Great art and tone, never compromised continuity for quality and as a result, was better for it,
Fraction --> because FF was great and
Millar --> Some cool ideas and great art, but never really paid off in the execution.

[AcesX1X]

If you don't like sympathetic robots, I suggest you give up SF. Data rules and Number Five is alive!

not all of us are on-board with this one vitruvian. it's a highly-controversial topic in many circles. a voice of dissent should be present in the books/films. and jim hammond should have this explained a little further.

[xMatt]

not all of us are on-board with this one vitruvian. it's a highly-controversial topic in many circles. a voice of dissent should be present in the books/films. and jim hammond should have this explained a little further.

Would this perspective please you:

"Sleepwalker lied about Jim Hammond having a soul to inspire Franklin to use his powers and save the day."

If you are truly insistent on this, we could take the philosophical idea even further, by saying that the creatures of Franklin's imagination still, for all intents and purposes, existed as people. He imagined them to be real, so who is Sleepwalker to say that they aren't? From their perspective they existed, because they had memories and feelings and a history. This would further extend the logic that Sleepwalker was lying, inciting Franklin to kill them. Sleepwalker thought that by saying that the alternate reality monsters didn't have a "soul" and that Hammond, Namor etc did have "souls", it would make Franklin less anxious and doubtful about killing them.

[Ursalink]

What are they going to do with the "empty shells" of "Heroes Reborn"? I mean, they could be actually be quite useful for them.
+ Transfering Steve Roger's "essence" to the fake Captain America, could restore his youth, don't you think?
+ The empty shell of Wonder Man could allow him to escape from Rogue's body.
+ I don't know how it works the fake Thor's Mjolnir, but the real Thor (Odinson) would really like a body with two arms again, not to mention having a Mjolnir as powerful as the real one but without the enchantment of worthy one.
+ Iron Man's empty shell could work for the digital version of Tony Stark, so he could face his current "superiorly jerk" self in similar ways.
+ The empty shell of Hawkeye is actually Wolverine, which means they could use this body to bring the real Wolverine back, somehow.

What do you think?

[jackolover]

I liked the way things ended up and I was glad to see a surprise development with the Frightful Four. I hope this means Sharon is out on parole. I'd like to see her be able to return to her human form but I guess that will happen only if any other writer is interested in her. I still found the Quiet Man a lackluster addition to the FF's rogues galllery.

All of the bonus stories were very enjoyable and at least I don't get the sense that the FF themselves were giving up their lifestyle. They'll just be out there operating as usual until the next relaunch comes along.

To answer the question posed about comparing Robinsons run to others, the story of the Quiet Man was good, the execution seemed mediocre, but that's maybe because this is Quiet Mans first Attack on the FF, because he was too cowardly to attack like all the other FF rogues gallery? Schmaltzy is how I read Robinson, and the ending was just too cute - a classical "everything turned out happy in the end" story. The world was wrecked, the cleanup begins, but no mention of the Cabal destroying Earths, or the super heroes trying to find them. Hell Reed and T'Challa could find them easily, but I suppose the Cabal has UN sanction, so nobody can arrest the Cabal. Isn't that a stinker? The world keeps turning, while planet Earths get destroyed. Spoilers for New Avengers,spoilers:

I suppose something was done to the Cabal eventually blowing them up on another Earth, but they escaped to the Ultimate Universe, so that at least was addressed eventually.

end of spoilers

As to the end of an era, it had all the elements of a romanticised farewell issue. Johnny reconnecting to old flame Dorrie Evans, Ben with Alicia, Val with her father, after despising him for so long and fleeing to uncle Doom for comfort away from Mother monster Malice as well. But now all is as it should be, just before Time Runs Out. They come back from the holiday cabin, and Sue goes to SHIELD and Reed goes on the run from Cap. But for a quiet moment, all is well with the world and the FF family thinks the world will be preserved.

[xMatt]

To answer the question posed about comparing Robinsons run to others, the story of the Quiet Man was good, the execution seemed mediocre, but that's maybe because this is Quiet Mans first Attack on the FF, because he was too cowardly to attack like all the other FF rogues gallery? Schmaltzy is how I read Robinson, and the ending was just too cute - a classical "everything turned out happy in the end" story. The world was wrecked, the cleanup begins, but no mention of the Cabal destroying Earths, or the super heroes trying to find them. Hell Reed and T'Challa could find them easily, but I suppose the Cabal has UN sanction, so nobody can arrest the Cabal. Isn't that a stinker? The world keeps turning, while planet Earths get destroyed. Spoilers for New Avengers,spoilers:

I suppose something was done to the Cabal eventually blowing them up on another Earth, but they escaped to the Ultimate Universe, so that at least was addressed eventually.

end of spoilers

As to the end of an era, it had all the elements of a romanticised farewell issue. Johnny reconnecting to old flame Dorrie Evans, Ben with Alicia, Val with her father, after despising him for so long and fleeing to uncle Doom for comfort away from Mother monster Malice as well. But now all is as it should be, just before Time Runs Out. They come back from the holiday cabin, and Sue goes to SHIELD and Reed goes on the run from Cap. But for a quiet moment, all is well with the world and the FF family thinks the world will be preserved.

I enjoyed the execution. Maybe it's just the Romantic in me I thought the dialogue was great and enjoyable, had a real old-school vibe to it. Especially that scene in the main story with Wizard and Thing, that was particularly fun. The art team really helped sell the atmosphere, though. The art team had a vibrant and energetic feel to it, as opposed to someone like Epting and Eaglesham on Hickman's run, or Bryan Hitch back on Millar's.

I thought Hickman's story and execution was next to perfect, which is why he'd be at the top of my list for the last few writers to do FF (followed by Robinson, Fraction and then Hitch). He mixed science fiction, family drama and good action really well.

[Kirby Krackle]

I really liked the issue. I've been really busy with family and work as of late, so reading this was a nice bit of escapism. Robinson's run was pretty great IMO. Also, excited to see where he goes with Jim Hammond, as he's writing him in that Secret Wars tie-in book. I dig that AI can have souls of sorts, it'll be a neat thing to further explore.

[jackolover]

I really liked the issue. I've been really busy with family and work as of late, so reading this was a nice bit of escapism. Robinson's run was pretty great IMO. Also, excited to see where he goes with Jim Hammond, as he's writing him in that Secret Wars tie-in book. I dig that AI can have souls of sorts, it'll be a neat thing to further explore.

From what I understand, Vision was made from a Human Torch Android, and Vision is presumed to have a soul, so why not Jim Hammond?

Another poster posed the question, how could an Android get a soul? In the Jim Hammond case, because he comes first, being made in 1939, the AI that his creator used must have come from somewhere mysterious, because that origin story of the Human Torch skims around a lot of the "How" that Jim was created. When Hank Pym went inside Vision to repair him, (as Vision is based on Jim), Pym couldn't understand the technology he was seeing, so that tells me both Jim and Vision are based on another generation of creature, as yet unrevealed.

[xMatt]

I really liked the issue. I've been really busy with family and work as of late, so reading this was a nice bit of escapism. Robinson's run was pretty great IMO. Also, excited to see where he goes with Jim Hammond, as he's writing him in that Secret Wars tie-in book. I dig that AI can have souls of sorts, it'll be a neat thing to further explore.

Yeah, it's hard to think of an issue that was really bad. Some were stronger than others, but I've thoroughly enjoyed each of them.

And you're right about Robinson and Jim Hammond! He seems to really like the character, using him in (obviously) Invaders, to Fantastic Four and now during Secret Wars.

[Reviresco]

So we find out an interesting little nugget --- the Original Human Torch, who is an android, has a soul! No explanation as to how this is the case, and Jim Hammond is just as surprised as the reader, and Robinson just leaves this outstanding as a dangling plotline to be dealt with at some point in the future. One must wonder, was it there at his creation? Is there something about his creation which we don't know about? Hmmmm.

I take it you didn't read Robinson's Invaders book? Tons of dangling plotlines.

The story about Reed and Val was really heartwarming. Thank you, Jeff Parker.

I agree. The art matched the story perfectly! It was my favorite of the four individual stories.

Which one did everyone like best?

[xMatt]

They were all pretty good, for the limited space they had and what they were trying to accomplish. Loved Ben's, though. I think the line went something like "you really want to experience clobberin' time?" That was perfect.

[jphamlore]

From what I understand, Vision was made from a Human Torch Android, and Vision is presumed to have a soul, so why not Jim Hammond?

Another poster posed the question, how could an Android get a soul? In the Jim Hammond case, because he comes first, being made in 1939, the AI that his creator used must have come from somewhere mysterious, because that origin story of the Human Torch skims around a lot of the "How" that Jim was created. When Hank Pym went inside Vision to repair him, (as Vision is based on Jim), Pym couldn't understand the technology he was seeing, so that tells me both Jim and Vision are based on another generation of creature, as yet unrevealed.

Earth has in Marvel stories explicitly declared the Vision has no rights whatsoever and ordered him decomissioned? And after he was destroyed in Avengers Disassembled, no one, not even the heroes, found any problem in leaving him in pieces in a crate.