Stan Lee Responds to David Goyer's She-Hulk Remarks

[CBR News]

She-Hulk co-creator Stan Lee has responded to screenwriter David S. Goyer's suggestion that the character was created as "a giant green porn star."


Full article here.

[Geralt of Rivia]

Teach the guy some class Stan.

[jackolover]

I consider Jennifer the best example of the female super hero created by Marvel. Smart, independent, strong, able to take punishment, and educated. She ticks all the boxes.

[Mr MajestiK]

Stan the man has spoken.

[Sea Hound]

I consider Jennifer the best example of the female super hero created by Marvel. Smart, independent, strong, able to take punishment, and educated. She ticks all the boxes.

I agree. She's also funny, comfortable with her sexuality, optimistic and joyful rather than angsty, works hard to balance the facets of her life, and is compassionate.

(I couldn't resist adding more boxes.)

[FuzzyBlueElf]

I agree. She's also funny, comfortable with her sexuality, optimistic and joyful rather than angsty, works hard to balance the facets of her life, and is compassionate.

(I couldn't resist adding more boxes.)

Goyer's mind can't handle any of that before he understands something he asks himself this:



I'm willing to bet that he hasn't read any She-Hulk at all in his life.

[Sea Hound]

Goyer's mind can't handle any of that before he understands something he asks himself this:



I'm willing to bet that he hasn't read any She-Hulk at all in his life.

Probably not.

[JaggedFel]

Good Job Stan

[ElGuitaristMagnifico]

Lots of people really need to learn the importance of context.

Comedic podcast.
Live audience.
Jokes and outlandish remarks flying every 15 seconds to get laughs.
Playing a game.

“a giant green porn star that only the Hulk could ****”
^does that really sound like a serious remark in that context?

Stan didn't even say much at all, so what's with all the praise?
It's shameful that Lee and Soule stooped to low as to respond to internet sensationalism. "Confused about a character's value" ? Why is anyone taking Goyer's remark so seriously?

That's besides the fact that, even as a non-serious remark, Goyer does have a small point - why does the female equivalent of a raging green monster have to be sexy when the male isn't? As good intentions as Lee had with her characterization, that can still be interpreted as a problem.

But I digress; haters gonna find reason to hate on someone they hate, no matter how little sense it makes.

[beetee]

Lots of people really need to learn the importance of context.

Comedic podcast.
Live audience.
Jokes and outlandish remarks flying every 15 seconds to get laughs.
Playing a game.

“a giant green porn star that only the Hulk could ****”
^does that really sound like a serious remark in that context?

Stan didn't even say much at all, so what's with all the praise?
It's shameful that Lee and Soule stooped to low as to respond to internet sensationalism. "Confused about a character's value" ? Why is anyone taking Goyer's remark so seriously?

That's besides the fact that, even as a non-serious remark, Goyer does have a small point - why does the female equivalent of a raging green monster have to be sexy when the male isn't? As good intentions as Lee had with her characterization, that can still be interpreted as a problem.

But I digress; haters gonna find reason to hate on someone they hate, no matter how little sense it makes.

This is the "Boys will be Boys" defense. A little locker room joshing around is okay fellas? You think he'd have the same sense of "humor" if the gender ratio in that room was different?

[ElGuitaristMagnifico]

This is the "Boys will be Boys" defense. A little locker room joshing around is okay fellas? You think he'd have the same sense of "humor" if the gender ratio in that room was different?

That's not the argument I made. Pay attention.

People are being so oversensitive, that Goyer pointing out something wrong is equated to him committing it.
He never said it was ok.
He never said he agrees with that kind of creation for a female character.
Instead, he stated that this might be how she was created as per the era of her creation. ... and exaggerating it because comedic podcast.

"Locker room joshing around" is fine when you are in an environment that is clearly for those intents and purposes, whose audience has been made aware that's the nature of the program, and guests on the show know what they're getting into.
He's in a comedy podcast, who's intro states that explicit language and content will take place in said podcast.
He isn't harassing someone in a locker room - doing something contrary to what the environment should be.

He wouldn't have a different sense of humor, no. he wouldn't, however, make the same joke, because anyone with half a brain would not make a joke if they knew it'd bomb due to the nature of the audience.
(i.e Making a joke about *insert tragedy here* is fine, unless you're performing for the survivors benefit charity of *same tragedy*.)

[SXVA]

That's besides the fact that, even as a non-serious remark, Goyer does have a small point - why does the female equivalent of a raging green monster have to be sexy when the male isn't? As good intentions as Lee had with her characterization, that can still be interpreted as a problem..

It's not unusual for men and women to be different.

Physical strength is something that's often praised with males, whereas beauty is something often praised with Females.

This can be seen practically everywhere, from Schools... to various media, to art, etc.
For example, in typical Schools from when i knew it... the male Jocks, the more stronger and aggressive males were praised... in contrast to that, the most beautiful Females were often praised.

It's not that crazy, that these sort of influences would find their way into creations.

The male has physical strengths and muscles over exaggerated and enhanced in the Hulk... whereas the Female counterpart has some of that but maintains her more Feminine aspects, and beauty would be a subject of praise therein like aforementioned.

At the foundational level, that is...

I don't necessarily take issue with that, what i take issue with is the continuous degradation of Femininity as weak, looked down upon, degraded and lowered.
That a Female needs to be as a male to be taken serious, to possess qualities more typically found in males to be powerful... that Femininity must be stripped away as a sign of strength and power.

I don't agree with that at all.

Does She-Hulk need to be some hulking mass of muscles, and take on the qualities of the stereotypical male to be respected and seen as strong and powerful?

As that seems to be the message i find, over and over within these type of scenarios.

I feel like on a general level, Femininity needs to be raised up more, within both males and Females... not stripped away.
I'd be completely okay with turning it around, and the Hulk having more Feminine qualities and She-Hulk having more masculine qualities... as a commentary of sorts. If it's perceived that Femininity is somehow weak when it's a Female. Maybe with more males having Feminine qualities and aspects to them, that would then start to develop more of a respect and appreciation for Femininity as also praised and lifted up, rather than stripped away and lowered. Since it seems to be seen that way when it's Females being Feminine.

I don't take issue with masculinity or Femininity, as qualities in either males or Females interchangeably.... i do take issue with what seems to be the praising of masculinity and lowering of Femininity, all too often and continuous.

Characters don't necessarily need to change to create such a change, perspective and mindsets do... Meaning, a Female character doesn't need to be unemotional... sleep around, be aggressive... say bro, etc, etc to be strong and powerful.
Perhaps, sleeping around... aggression, being unemotional... (saying "bro") instead or an alternative to, isn't something that should be so overly praised and respected.

That's not to say a male or Female can't sleep around, be aggressive... lack emotions, say "bro"... it's just to say that shouldn't be the only way. A male or Female should also be able to not sleep around, be emotional, not be aggressive... while still being praised and respected all the same.

Just a thought. (not directed at anyone in particular)

PS: I'm a male, who isn't the typical male... and had to deal with that crap my entire existence of being perceived as weak and mocked, etc, etc and so forth and so on... because i didn't overly value and participate in that which is so overly valued and participated in.... instead of sleeping around, i was more into romance... i was into Sarah McLachlan, Bjork, etc... I will cry while watching a movie or TV series... i don't like aggression, and greatly value humility as beautiful and one of the greatest aspects to a person, etc, etc.

The point being, that these qualities that are a part of me... who i am, was continuously and constantly degraded... lowered, mocked, perceived as weak in contrast to....

I'll never conform to that perspective and/or unwritten law of the jungle.. or whatever the hell it is, as long as i exist.

[beetee]

That's not the argument I made. Pay attention.

People are being so oversensitive, that Goyer pointing out something wrong is equated to him committing it.
He never said it was ok.
He never said he agrees with that kind of creation for a female character.
Instead, he stated that this might be how she was created as per the era of her creation. ... and exaggerating it because comedic podcast.

"Locker room joshing around" is fine when you are in an environment that is clearly for those intents and purposes, whose audience has been made aware that's the nature of the program, and guests on the show know what they're getting into.
He's in a comedy podcast, who's intro states that explicit language and content will take place in said podcast.
He isn't harassing someone in a locker room - doing something contrary to what the environment should be.

He wouldn't have a different sense of humor, no. he wouldn't, however, make the same joke, because anyone with half a brain would not make a joke if they knew it'd bomb due to the nature of the audience.
(i.e Making a joke about *insert tragedy here* is fine, unless you're performing for the survivors benefit charity of *same tragedy*.)

Whether you get it or not you (and you don't) you just proved my point. First off he's dead wrong about the reasons for her creation as has been pointed out by others. Your second point about how "Locker Room Joshing" is okay as long as everybody "knows" it's a comedy podcast and the audience is "appropriate", well okay a bunch of guys are smack talking She Hulk and Martian Manhunter and their fans, no harm, no foul right? What's that you say... The podcast went PUBLIC? And like some fans are getting pissed? And Women? AND Stan Lee? Because maybe just maybe.... IT WAS WRONG TO BEGIN WITH? This podcast wasn't just for a mostly male audience was it? Goyer has his right to free speech, offensive speech, etc. and people are free to call him on it. Freedom of Speech has never meant freedom from consequences or comment. You learn that from your parents.

[Iron Maiden]

Even "Locker Room joshing" is a bad analogy to make when you think of the Miami Dolphins situation. I guess that was OK too, huh? The one that is making the joshing is often clueless and just does so out of a false air of superiority. "I can joke about this person because I am so cool, smart, funny etc."

[Alvarez]

I like how Goyer's comments are now being spun in the direction of him rallying for feminism and the end for unfair female representation.
It's funny how to defend this madness, the man has to be painted as a saint who was just using colorful language cause he was on a comedy show.
Him calling a character nothing more than a creation with the intent of being wank material and Hulks personal love hole is okay apparently.

People will say BUT HIS INTENT.
Yeah, it makes me think his intent was pure of thought and socially conscious when before he spoke she was being called a slut while a bunch of dudes laughed.

It was a bunch of guys making really stupid uninformed sexist and misogynistic jokes. Nothing more, nothing deeper.

As much as I don't care for Stan Lee, I'm glad he addressed this.
That's all I really have to say.