Stan Lee Responds to David Goyer's She-Hulk Remarks

[ElGuitaristMagnifico]

Whether you get it or not you (and you don't) you just proved my point. First off he's dead wrong about the reasons for her creation as has been pointed out by others. Your second point about how "Locker Room Joshing" is okay as long as everybody "knows" it's a comedy podcast and the audience is "appropriate", well okay a bunch of guys are smack talking She Hulk and Martian Manhunter and their fans, no harm, no foul right? What's that you say... The podcast went PUBLIC? And like some fans are getting pissed? And Women? AND Stan Lee? Because maybe just maybe.... IT WAS WRONG TO BEGIN WITH? This podcast wasn't just for a mostly male audience was it? Goyer has his right to free speech, offensive speech, etc. and people are free to call him on it. Freedom of Speech has never meant freedom from consequences or comment. You learn that from your parents.

Someone being offended does not prove anything. Being offended is simply a whine.
Society is becoming increasingly more bleak and depressing because we demand so much political correctness, and we can't say anything on the chance that someone will get offended. What matters is intent and context: was he trying to be offensive? Should what he said be taken offensively given when and where he said it and how?
You seem to forget that, live audience aside, the audience is the podcast's listeners; an audience who I'd assume to be familiar with the content of the programing and the nature of discussions.

Freedom of consequence? Sure, you're right on that front.
But he is in an environment that calls for such speech. Although Goyer is no comedian, are you actually going to argue that Bil Burr should be reprimanded for the women jokes he makes on stage? Or are you smart enough to realize he's in an environment were people should understand that he's not being serious, and only trying to amuse?

He's wrong about the creation of the character. So what?
Didn't he precede his statement with, "I have a theory." Isn't he in an environment where you say things that aren't true just to be entertaining in a comedic setting? Being that everything being said before and after him are clearly in jest, could be not be speaking sarcastically in order to make satire of pseudo-feminist mentality (everything is a male fantasy, and you don't realize it, no matter what your good intention). Everything about how, when, and where he said it points to it not being a serious and personally held belief of his.
We've all done this with friends, speaking sarcastically to be funny and make a point. You can argue that hes public and not with friends, but you're wrong because he's in a comedic podcast and that's what guests do, that's what's expected. But because you personally didn't like it you think it's objectively wrong.

SXVA: thank you. Mostly because I agree with you, and those are my personal view points about the more general topic of femininity and depiction of female characters in comics. But that was well put.

People will say BUT HIS INTENT.
Yeah, it makes me think his intent was pure of thought and socially conscious when before he spoke she was being called a slut while a bunch of dudes laughed.

It was a bunch of guys making really stupid uninformed sexist and misogynistic jokes. Nothing more, nothing deeper.

Exactly.
What's so wrong about it, and we should go on a crusade and hate the man for it? We all do it, and anyone would be lying if they say they don't make their fair share of mindless comments when amongst friends.
He was in an environment where this was acceptable - not in some national PSA.

[Pat Thomas]

Some people just don't know when to keep their mouth shut. We all know people like that, but most of us have a sense of when it's best to keep a thought to ourselves. From
what I've read about this guy, he seems to put his foot in his mouth regularly. The thing is, nobody would really even know about it anyway if it didn't get blown out of proportion
on message boards. Now the number of people who have been exposed to this moron's idiotic comment is way more than if somebody didn't report this "news" at all. Who really gives
a damn what this guy thinks? It's certainly not worth the attention it's getting. People need to stop being offended by everything and worry about what good they can do personally to
make the world a better place. Piling up on a guy who says something stupid doesn't benefit anybody, even if it boosts one's own self-worth.

[SXVA]

SXVA: thank you. Mostly because I agree with you, and those are my personal view points about the more general topic of femininity and depiction of female characters in comics. But that was well put.
.

Awesome. That's good to hear, thanks.

As probably evident from the post, i'm very passionate about that. Hehe.

[Alvarez]

Exactly.
What's so wrong about it, and we should go on a crusade and hate the man for it? We all do it, and anyone would be lying if they say they don't make their fair share of mindless comments when amongst friends.
He was in an environment where this was acceptable - not in some national PSA.

Thing is Goyer is no longer in the position to make these jokes.
The man is now responsible for the DC Cinematic Universe.
He now has a responsibility to set an example and maintain an image.

This is what comes with fame, this is what comes with obtaining clout in any industry.
For him to say obnoxious crap like this is just plain stupid. Personal wise and career wise.

Still, the fact that he is where he is in the industry should be worrisome considering his mindset.

Also, to say that we ALL say these things... really now?
You cannot speak for everyone and say that we also partake in sexist locker room type humor.
That's silly to even think just because you might do it others will as well.

[ElGuitaristMagnifico]

Thing is Goyer is no longer in the position to make these jokes.
1) The man is now responsible for the DC Cinematic Universe.
He now has a responsibility to set an example and maintain an image.

This is what comes with fame, this is what comes with obtaining clout in any industry.
For him to say obnoxious crap like this is just plain stupid. Personal wise and career wise.

2) Still, the fact that he is where he is in the industry should be worrisome considering his mindset.

3) Also, to say that we ALL say these things... really now?
You cannot speak for everyone and say that we also partake in sexist locker room type humor.
That's silly to even think just because you might do it others will as well.

1) It's unfortunate when people are expected to uphold certain professional responsibilities even when outside the office.
Poor fool isn't in the office, or in a DC panel, or at a report/interview about his work.
You are correct. This is how the world works. I'm saying that it's unfortunate and should be better.

2) What mindset? Are we still taking his comments seriously?

3) Yes, we all say mindless crap from time to time.
I'm not talking about this topic in particular. Mindless crap in general. Seeing by what you said in the sentence I made bold, you mistook me for saying everyone partakes in that brand/style/sense of humor. My apologies for not not making myself clear. I meant that everyone says stupid stuff, and stuff that might offend someone else without thinking about how it might offend. It happens, people are not infallible.

Awesome. That's good to hear, thanks.

As probably evident from the post, i'm very passionate about that. Hehe.

I understand that.

The unfortunate reality is that everyone is going to think they are right and the other is wrong, despite fighting for the same thing.
Even on these boards, I've encountered people arguing for better female representation in comics by means of not being draw so scantily, or with exaggerated anatomy. All while others will argue that these women are strong women, confident in their femininity to wear those outfits, and shows their strength by not being afraid of their femininity. And some others, like you and I, will think that the medium exaggerates the physical qualities of the sexes for the sake of appeal - men hugely muscular, and women with unrealistic curves, and the like.
At least the common ground is, I think, is the characterization. I think that is of more important influence to impressionable audiences. But, being that I have no children, I don't know what is more impressionable for sure.

[Alvarez]

1) It's unfortunate when people are expected to uphold certain professional responsibilities even when outside the office.
Poor fool isn't in the office, or in a DC panel, or at a report/interview about his work.
You are correct. This is how the world works. I'm saying that it's unfortunate and should be better.

2) What mindset? Are we still taking his comments seriously?

3) Yes, we all say mindless crap from time to time.
I'm not talking about this topic in particular. Mindless crap in general. Seeing by what you said in the sentence I made bold, you mistook me for saying everyone partakes in that brand/style/sense of humor. My apologies for not not making myself clear. I meant that everyone says stupid stuff, and stuff that might offend someone else without thinking about how it might offend. It happens, people are not infallible.

1) He's in a public forum though. What's said in private is one thing, but this wasn't the case.
The man has a responsibility to be an ambassador for DC and Warner. With that comes certain stipulations.
You never EVER say anything that puts you or the company in a bad light. It's business.

2) Until I hear otherwise from him, yeah, I take these comments seriously.
While it's true he was in a joking atmosphere, they are still his thoughts.
Those thoughts being that this strong female character is nothing more than a one note f*** doll.
I would like for this not to be the case, but nothing had changed my mind as of yet.

3) That's the thing though, not EVERYONE does say sexist, misogynistic, racist, homophobic and off color sort of crap.
This is what I'm getting at. People will often say stupid things, but you'll find that not everyone goes down that path.
Some just don't find that stuff funny in their day to day lives.

This isn't about being ultra PC. I'll be the first to say I hate how insane political correctness as become.
What this is about calling someone out on their stupidity. That's what this is boneheaded stupidity mixed with disrespect.
Goyer is allowed to say what he wants... but he just needs to understand that his position in life now comes with consequences.

[ElGuitaristMagnifico]

1) He's in a public forum though. What's said in private is one thing, but this wasn't the case.
The man has a responsibility to be an ambassador for DC and Warner. With that comes certain stipulations.
You never EVER say anything that puts you or the company in a bad light. It's business.

2) Until I hear otherwise from him, yeah, I take these comments seriously.
While it's true he was in a joking atmosphere, they are still his thoughts.
Those thoughts being that this strong female character is nothing more than a one note f*** doll.
I would like for this not to be the case, but nothing had changed my mind as of yet.

3) That's the thing though, not EVERYONE does say sexist, misogynistic, racist, homophobic and off color sort of crap.
This is what I'm getting at. People will often say stupid things, but you'll find that not everyone goes down that path.
Some just don't find that stuff funny in their day to day lives.

This isn't about being ultra PC. I'll be the first to say I hate how insane political correctness as become.
What this is about calling someone out on their stupidity. That's what this is boneheaded stupidity mixed with disrespect.
Goyer is allowed to say what he wants... but he just needs to understand that his position in life now comes with consequences.

1) fair enough. I don't particularly 100% agree, but I've haven't a rebuttal.

2) I still contend that the fact he thought it does not mean he holds those beliefs. In this case, he offered a possibility of how the character might have been concieved - not to say anything of her characterization past or present, just how she might have been conceived.
Moreso, I will still hold that it was in jest, not actually thinking it was true.
Until he says otherwise, I will take his comments in a comedic podcast as that - comedic.

3) I don't believe that no one ever says that ever under any circumstance. We all know a joke or two. I THINK, because I have not exprienced otherwise myself.
I understand your point though, and agree that not everyone has the same sense of humor. I suppose that, what I think, is people should not go on a witch hunt because someone has a different sense of humor. You don't find those jokes funny? Ok. Leave him alone.

This is going beyond just not agreeing with his humor, and it's going into territory where people are thinking of him as a terrible person, or should lose his job, and the like.
This does not make him a bad person, or bad at his job. It just means he has different views than you do (the general "you", not "you" Alvarez).
Judge his person based on how he treats other people in his life. Judge his job by his work (which internet boards seem to do a lot of, haha).

[krazijoe]

faux outrage at its finest.

[SXVA]

1) fair enough. I don't particularly 100% agree, but I've haven't a rebuttal.

2) I still contend that the fact he thought it does not mean he holds those beliefs. In this case, he offered a possibility of how the character might have been concieved - not to say anything of her characterization past or present, just how she might have been conceived.
Moreso, I will still hold that it was in jest, not actually thinking it was true.
Until he says otherwise, I will take his comments in a comedic podcast as that - comedic.

3) I don't believe that no one ever says that ever under any circumstance. We all know a joke or two. I THINK, because I have not exprienced otherwise myself.
I understand your point though, and agree that not everyone has the same sense of humor. I suppose that, what I think, is people should not go on a witch hunt because someone has a different sense of humor. You don't find those jokes funny? Ok. Leave him alone.

This is going beyond just not agreeing with his humor, and it's going into territory where people are thinking of him as a terrible person, or should lose his job, and the like.
This does not make him a bad person, or bad at his job. It just means he has different views than you do (the general "you", not "you" Alvarez).
Judge his person based on how he treats other people in his life. Judge his job by his work (which internet boards seem to do a lot of, haha).

Fairly or unfairly, right or not.... in this day and age you just got to be careful and mindful of what you say. Practically everyone has a platform to voice their opinions... and information flows quickly.

Perhaps, he is being singled out a little too aggressively and too much is being made out of it... but fans are passionate about the things they love, and he isn't just some random person on a forum..., he's a person of influence.

Even if it's a joke, why make it so distasteful... it is possible to joke around in a more fun way, without insulting fans and characters fans adore, etc. I don't know... i'm not huge with the "it was a joke" thing, jokes don't have to be insulting and crude. Why insult The fans with a "joke". and perpetuate that being a virgin is somehow bad or negative. Meh.

[Alvarez]

1) fair enough. I don't particularly 100% agree, but I've haven't a rebuttal.

2) I still contend that the fact he thought it does not mean he holds those beliefs. In this case, he offered a possibility of how the character might have been concieved - not to say anything of her characterization past or present, just how she might have been conceived.
Moreso, I will still hold that it was in jest, not actually thinking it was true.
Until he says otherwise, I will take his comments in a comedic podcast as that - comedic.

3) I don't believe that no one ever says that ever under any circumstance. We all know a joke or two. I THINK, because I have not exprienced otherwise myself.
I understand your point though, and agree that not everyone has the same sense of humor. I suppose that, what I think, is people should not go on a witch hunt because someone has a different sense of humor. You don't find those jokes funny? Ok. Leave him alone.

This is going beyond just not agreeing with his humor, and it's going into territory where people are thinking of him as a terrible person, or should lose his job, and the like.
This does not make him a bad person, or bad at his job. It just means he has different views than you do (the general "you", not "you" Alvarez).
Judge his person based on how he treats other people in his life. Judge his job by his work (which internet boards seem to do a lot of, haha).

2) We're both just at each end of the spectrum then.
I'm looking for some clarification on his part... which I doubt will come.

3) Here's the thing and I keep making this point.
Being a figure in the public eye and someone in his position... he essentially loses the right to be left alone over making these comments.
It's the price you pay with fame and an elevated status. Everything you say now becomes public and with that can be put under the microscope.

The man has a responsibility, plain and simple. He represents DC and Warner Bros in their comic book films.
This is what comes with that. When you speak, you now speak for who you represent. Like it or not.

Along the same lines though, of someone says something I disagree with, I will call them out and not just shrug it off.
I'm Chicano and the amount of racist shit I've heard about my race in public is often seen as "well they were just joking."
But to me, that's just an excuse for idiocy. I've gotten in fist fights over people joking about Mexican's jumping fences.
You can say whatever the hell you want and I will defend that right... but you face what ever comes with those words.

Now is Goyer a horrible person? That's up for debate really.
As of now, his character is in question and dubious at that.

[ElGuitaristMagnifico]

2) We're both just at each end of the spectrum then.
I'm looking for some clarification on his part... which I doubt will come.

3) Here's the thing and I keep making this point.
Being a figure in the public eye and someone in his position... he essentially loses the right to be left alone over making these comments.
It's the price you pay with fame and an elevated status. Everything you say now becomes public and with that can be put under the microscope.

The man has a responsibility, plain and simple. He represents DC and Warner Bros in their comic book films.
This is what comes with that. When you speak, you now speak for who you represent. Like it or not.

Along the same lines though, of someone says something I disagree with, I will call them out and not just shrug it off.
I'm Chicano and the amount of racist shit I've heard about my race in public is often seen as "well they were just joking."
But to me, that's just an excuse for idiocy. I've gotten in fist fights over people joking about Mexican's jumping fences.
You can say whatever the hell you want and I will defend that right... but you face what ever comes with those words.

Now is Goyer a horrible person? That's up for debate really.
As of now, his character is in question and dubious at that.

Then that is where we are fundamentally in opposition with each other.
It is basic morality that you are free to do as you want so long as it does not infringe on the rights and freedoms of others.
It is then my interpretation that unless those words are rallying people into (or promoting) the active oppression and/or infringement of other people's rights and freedoms, there should be no tangible repercussion for exercising your freedom of speech. This means that other people have the right to exercise that same freedom of speech in rebuttal to that person.

As a Canadian of southern american decent myself, I can say that I have had my offers for yard work and heard my share of green card jokes. And those same people have gone to anyone's defense when I or anyone else has been discriminated.
Earlier you posted about intent. Unfortunately the world does come down to a person's intent. That is the difference between a harmless fence joke and derogatory hateful spew about hoping fences.

And I'll have said my peace with that, before it gets way off topic.

[PwrdOn]

It's a bit absurd to see Stan Lee of all people taking up the cross to defend female superheroes. After all, this was the guy who created some of the weakest and shallowest women in comic book history, and then watched as other writers went through extreme pains to try and salvage them into something worthwhile.

[Iron Maiden]

It's a bit absurd to see Stan Lee of all people taking up the cross to defend female superheroes. After all, this was the guy who created some of the weakest and shallowest women in comic book history, and then watched as other writers went through extreme pains to try and salvage them into something worthwhile.

I give him a break on that subject as someone who was *ahem* actually around. All you have to do is look at the MeToo channel or any channel that has the old TV shows from that era. Mrs. Cleaver the stay at home Mom wearing a modest string of pearls and cute housedress. The wife frequently deferring to the husband or worse, women who were desperately searching for a husband like Sally on the Dick Van Dyke show. There were very few strong women in the media. My idol used to be Diana Rigg's Mrs Peel on the Avengers because that was the first time I saw a female kick some ass (even if it was a bit dainty compared to say, Kill Bill) and save her partner's bacon from time to time.

[resipsaloquitur]

It's a bit absurd to see Stan Lee of all people taking up the cross to defend female superheroes. After all, this was the guy who created some of the weakest and shallowest women in comic book history, and then watched as other writers went through extreme pains to try and salvage them into something worthwhile.

He gave us Sif--does that count?

[PwrdOn]

I give him a break on that subject as someone who was *ahem* actually around. All you have to do is look at the MeToo channel or any channel that has the old TV shows from that era. Mrs. Cleaver the stay at home Mom wearing a modest string of pearls and cute housedress. The wife frequently deferring to the husband or worse, women who were desperately searching for a husband like Sally on the Dick Van Dyke show. There were very few strong women in the media. My idol used to be Diana Rigg's Mrs Peel on the Avengers because that was the first time I saw a female kick some ass (even if it was a bit dainty compared to say, Kill Bill) and save her partner's bacon from time to time.

I claim no authority on the matter, but from what I've seen sitcom housewives were still treated with a lot more respect than Marvel's "superheroic" women were. I don't recall Mary Tyler Moore ever having to put up with something like this:



And even if you give him a pass for the vintage stuff, what's his excuse for this: