Betsy Braddock: Psylocke Appreciation 2018

[CGAR]

There's a few things to unpack here:

1.) Who says we haven't been advocating for this for a while now? The issue is that our voices were not being listened to when we spoke.
2.) Anger is a different level of motivator than discomfort.
3.) Our understanding of these issues evolve over time. What may have been acceptable or not discussed 20 years ago is looked at differently in the context of today.
4.) You also have to understand the connection that gets formed over time. Many people who are connected with Psylocke like her from other media as well who may not be active comic book readers posting on CBR's forum.
5.) You say that it is not our character but that belies the fact that fan reaction has a definite impact on the creative decisions Marvel makes. People advocated for making Iceman gay. It happened. People advocated for Betsy to go back to being white. It happened. Yes Marvel gets to make the shots but regardless of it is good or bad... fan feedback informs the decisions they make.

I don't disagree that it should have been explored earlier. But the fact that it wasn't explored before is not sufficient grounds for them to not explore it now. Instead, they took the easy way out that makes it so they do not have to examine the implications of their previous decisions.



In the spirit of full disclosure I do want to elaborate on this. I am normally a lurker on the forums so I never really voiced my concerns until it looked like this change was going to happen. Perhaps I was overly complacent thinking it would not happen and that Marvel would eventually get the brains to get around to it. I was a fan of their decision to make Iceman gay for example so I thought I just needed to be patient.

And fan reaction was never 'we want a Betsy Braddock story' that goes into introspection of what this character is going through.

It was never voiced in a way like the Iceman example you bring up.

My whole point is they had an opportunity to tell a good story with Psylocke. They failed. Going forward I hope they take this new direction seriously. There is a lot still that needs to be delved into if they want to make it work.

Im not disagreeing with you. That story SHOULD have been told.

Betsy's brand equity shouldn't be affected: Psychic knife/butterfly effect/purple hair/hand2hand fighter.

We just need to WAIT AND SEE what the writers are going to do.

[Killerbee911]

Hence why Psylocke did have elements that worked for her as there were parts that were metaphors for the asian-american and mixed-asian experiences. She also did have a lot of problematic elements... but what has happened is that we've now tossed out all the good with the bad instead of examining the bad and working through it to reach a deeper and more meaningful understanding.

Maybe but those things could be cover with a better character whose problematics elements doesn't make hard to tell the story as mentioned before someone like Daken who is biracial actually had it as part of his story it was covered well because he is biracial.

And your narrative explanation for Psylocke reasoning for going back to her body off base and seems rooted in your failure to understand that she sees the original body as herself it is not pursuit of more desirable body it is Pyslocke choosing to going back to being herself,Her original self. Also more importantly the character is choosing for herself what she want the to be instead of someone putting her in a body that she had no choice in the matter. Anyways like I said before they were some really interesting stories they could have told with Psylocke and I actually agree with you that they could tell story without changing her but as mention in 30 years they haven't told that story. Since we don't have those complex stories what we have is the story of British white woman living in an Asian women body and narratively when British white woman was given the chance to go back to what she was before she did because that is how she viewed herself. If they did the groundwork to make her accept both sides of who she is and when she pop out from Styxx "She would still be Asian or even biracial" that could have been a strong story too.

[TurboTaj]

We just need to WAIT AND SEE what the writers are going to do.

This is precisely the problem. It seems as though we found ourselves in this position because those of us with these concerns kept waiting and seeing if the writers were going to address it instead of speaking up loudly.

[CGAR]

Well I want the story NOW. Ive been tweeting the writers and editor.

The thing is realistically, as I stated before, they already have everything planned till early next year. Extermination/Xmen Disassembled. And we know for sure none of the current arcs are going to follow up on this.

So Ive been proactive in letting all 3 main writers and editorial know that this story is important.

Also I think this is a great time for a solo series or mini series.

I don't think my WAIT and SEE comment was wrong. Im being realistic with what we know of the xmen plans so far.

[TurboTaj]

Maybe but those things could be cover with a better character whose problematics elements doesn't make hard to tell the story as mentioned before someone like Daken who is biracial actually had it as part of his story it was covered well because he is biracial.

And your narrative explanation for Psylocke reasoning for going back to her body off base and seems rooted in your failure to understand that she sees the original body as herself it is not pursuit of more desirable body it is Pyslocke choosing to going back to being herself,Her original self. Also more importantly the character is choosing for herself what she want the to be instead of someone putting her in a body that she had no choice in the matter. Anyways like I said before they were some really interesting stories they could have told with Psylocke and I actually agree with you that they could tell story without changing her but as mention in 30 years they haven't told that story. Since we don't have those complex stories what we have is the story of British white woman living in an Asian women body and narratively when British white woman was given the chance to go back to what she was before she did. If they did the groundwork to make her accept both sides of who she is and when she pop out from Styxx "She would still be Asian or even biracial" and that could have been a strong story too.

I do think there is something to be said though that her problematic past makes her an even more poignant figure to examine these things.

I also think it is a fair criticism of my arguments that ultimately Betsy chose this for herself. Again, that seems to go back to whether or not we judge a character strictly by what is on the page or if we take circumstances outside the comics into consideration. So yes, she chose this for herself but it came from a writer who basically seemed to confirm he wrote the story with the specific goal in mind of making her white again. As CRaymond said, it didn't help that he did so in a way that he considered to solve the problem without actually addressing or examining the problem in the first place.

[Killerbee911]

I think the Psylocke change will be touched on in X-men disassembled to what level is the question but yes it is story that will a book dedicated to it and yes we all have to wait and see.

[Guy_McNichts]

Mixed feelings on this.
I preferred ninja/Asian Psylocke, and a few years ago I would've been very resistant if not totally opposed to switching her back.

I'm more open to it now, but there is something that's worrying me about this whole thing. In theory, even with her old body back (or restored or whatever you want to call it), Betsy's years as a ninja still happened and were still a major part of her identity. So, presumably, there's no reason she can't still be a bad-ass martial artist.

But with her Asian body (Kwannon I suppose) also still alive, I'm concerned they're going to reduce Betsy to purely a telepath who never engages physically while Asian-Psylocke keeps the fighter/ninja stuff. And if that's the case, all they'll have done is take my favorite character and split her in twine. I liked the whole package of Betsy/Psylocke--the telepath who was also a kick-ass ninja.

I hope it's not the case, but this would be taking a ten and turning her into two fives.

[CGAR]

I just tweeted them again because I'm annoyed that this story isn't taking prescedence.

Give me a MINI !!!!!!!

RCO006_1468920114.jpg

[Yronheart]

The art above re-affirms to me why it doesn't matter what body she's in. There's nothing remotely "Asian" about the way she was drawn there and she's still very clearly Psylocke.

Honestly i think it's rather superficial to be obsessed with the body issue. Love the character, not the body. She'll probably be back in a facsimile of the thongkini eventually anyways.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Well Taz, back in 2015 I didn't advocate for Kwannon to be back or for Betsy to be in that body, I advocated for that English body to be back but not with the X-Men and not messing with Betsy's life and have some other person's soul that had died end up in it and then have to decide who they were in the new body...like what happened with Xavier in the movies...so no bodyswap or anything of the sort...and whether she looked Asian or not was the result of the artist and each one drew her differently...

And for all that we know slacker Kwannon could have a very short span in the comics and then be gone, never getting her due and making then the whole bodyswap back that much more convoluted and messed up...if this storyline was supposed to fix things and stop the arguing...it failed miserably...

[slacker]

"Examining" the circumstances of the decades-long mistake of keeping Psylocke in an Asian body as a means of meta storytelling is lame as hell and I'm so relieved they didn't go that route. Also you keep saying this "easy way out." Nonsense as if rectifying that mistake needed to be even more drawn out. Even a mini or one-shot dedicated to Psylocke "examining the problem" of .... what, exactly? Being white and waking up Japanese? Being the x-men's ninja bandwagon candidate? Being a mess that marvel execs up til now have had no idea what do do about? Overall just a really unsavory idea.

On top of that, it is never one person (in this case the writer who you think made this easy-out decision) that decides the direction of the stories or characters. It was a team of people who stepped up to finally take action to reversing her stagnating status as the confusing & confused psychic ninja.

The argument for her being a (unintentional) metaphor / example of the struggles of biraciality or culture-disconnect is also really weak. People who experience such things deserve way better than a character in yellow-face suddenly tailored to cater to imaginary problems. Please don't suggest again that she was ever or should be a beacon for the struggle of the multiracial person. /cringe

If you actually understood why she's been problematic, as you claim, and how serious the appropriation of asian culture has been with her over the years has been. And remember how long it took for her groin to be clothed, in a male-dominated field of art and writing. And remember that a number of her writers actually had wanted to explore restoring her body (Bunn, G Willow Wilson off the top of my head) if it weren't for the mandate to basically not make too many ripples in the pond. And acknowledge that the only thing Asian about Psylocke has only ever been her art (half the time) and any appropriated Japanese cues by the writers and artists. And remember that her being in Kwannon's body was meant to be temporary. Then not one of y'all should be suggesting such weak ideas for why she should have stayed fake asian.

Jean grey is back again, Xavier is back, Logan is back. Magneto hasn't been a villain for a long time. Rogue doesn't have super strength. Giving Psylocke her own body back and finally giving Kwannon her due as a fully fleshed out character of color are far from being out of the question. And now we've got half of that. Awesome! The easy way out would have been to keep the mess going, to cater to what's less difficult to accomplish, to keep her accessible to new readers. But no, the team did the hard work and made the tough call and put on their modern day big person pants and did the right thing.

[TurboTaj]

This is getting a bit tiresome repeating myself like a broken record so I'll just share this response and leave it at that.

"Examining" the circumstances of the decades-long mistake of keeping Psylocke in an Asian body as a means of meta storytelling is lame as hell and I'm so relieved they didn't go that route. Also you keep saying this "easy way out." Nonsense as if rectifying that mistake needed to be even more drawn out. Even a mini or one-shot dedicated to Psylocke "examining the problem" of .... what, exactly? Being white and waking up Japanese? Being the x-men's ninja bandwagon candidate? Being a mess that marvel execs up til now have had no idea what do do about? Overall just a really unsavory idea.

Hey, you can disagree with my storyline suggestions. I'm not a writer. We all want different things. I'm just trying to bring in a different perspective growing up as an hapa asian-amerian and to get people to understand why this issue isn't so clear cut. You may find that returning Betsy to being white "fixes" the issue. I am trying to share that in my opinion it does not. This unwillingness to entertain the concerns of those of us who opposed the body swap is precisely how we got into this mess in the first place. Listen to the concerns of those you are supposedly advocating for.

On top of that, it is never one person (in this case the writer who you think made this easy-out decision) that decides the direction of the stories or characters. It was a team of people who stepped up to finally take action to reversing her stagnating status as the confusing & confused psychic ninja.

https://twitter.com/JimZub/status/1032294957938364417

Writer saying this was his idea. Yes, others bought into the bag of goods he was selling... but it starts with a writer and their vision for the story they want to tell.

The argument for her being a (unintentional) metaphor / example of the struggles of biraciality or culture-disconnect is also really weak. People who experience such things deserve way better than a character in yellow-face suddenly tailored to cater to imaginary problems. Please don't suggest again that she was ever or should be a beacon for the struggle of the multiracial person. /cringe

I don't even know where to begin with this one. It's highly insulting to belittle my opinion and experience as a biracial asian person. These are not "imaginary problems." These are things most asian-americans and mixed asians experience regularly. The fact that you are dismissing these concerns is deeply problematic. If these are the positions you are taking then please do not purport to be advocating for these changes on the interest of asians. If you truly want to create better representation, then listen to the concerns we are trying to share without being sarcastic, dismissive, or insulting. Even if you ultimately to choose going down a different path, understanding the concerns of those who disagree with you in a genuine way would only deepen your understanding of the situation and allow you to better articulate your own positions.

If you actually understood why she's been problematic, as you claim, and how serious the appropriation of asian culture has been with her over the years has been. And remember how long it took for her groin to be clothed, in a male-dominated field of art and writing. And remember that a number of her writers actually had wanted to explore restoring her body (Bunn, G Willow Wilson off the top of my head) if it weren't for the mandate to basically not make too many ripples in the pond. And acknowledge that the only thing Asian about Psylocke has only ever been her art (half the time) and any appropriated Japanese cues by the writers and artists. And remember that her being in Kwannon's body was meant to be temporary. Then not one of y'all should be suggesting such weak ideas for why she should have stayed fake asian.

Listen, I disagree about the underlying decision to return her to her original body. However, like all things if the story is done well then my perspective could be changed. If other writers wanted to take a stab at it I would be opposed to the concept but if they managed to do it in a way that genuinely addressed the underlying problems of the character to achieve a resolution they believe in then I would not be as upset. I may disagree with their position, but I could at least understand it and see them convey their position well in the pages of the comic. I'm not in the business of policing others language but I find it very divisive and straight up insulting to be using terms like fake asian in this kind of context where we are trying to communicate how some of us as asians can see ourselves represented in the character. This very language is exactly why I advocated for making her biracial. This is the kind of language we have heard all our lives.

Jean grey is back again, Xavier is back, Logan is back. Magneto hasn't been a villain for a long time. Rogue doesn't have super strength. Giving Psylocke her own body back and finally giving Kwannon her due as a fully fleshed out character of color are far from being out of the question. And now we've got half of that. Awesome! The easy way out would have been to keep the mess going, to cater to what's less difficult to accomplish, to keep her accessible to new readers. But no, the team did the hard work and made the tough call and put on their modern day big person pants and did the right thing.

I disagree with our overall analysis about the level of difficulty involved in making Betsy white. That was a decision that was made and was achieved in the course of this random mini-series that isn't even her own book. The actual hard work is going to be giving Kwannon her due which remains to be seen (but I am highly skeptical of Marvel succeeding at.) If they manage to do it, great then I will retract some of these concerns. My calculation is that the much more difficult approach (especially from a writing standpoint) is to take a divisive issue and bring in a different nuanced perspective that is neither catering to those individuals who lack nuance in their understanding of how there are valid positives to an asian Psylocke nor those individuals who fetishize and objectify Psylocke as an asian woman. But if you want to continue trying to simplify the issue into a clear black/white, right/wrong issue then that's up to you. I just don't think we improve as a collective whole by dismissing other's opinions and concerns. To characterize those who disagree with you as the opposition rather than someone who may be able to challenge your own views to deepen your own understanding of your positions. I have already evolved some of my positions based on some very well-articulated and poignant feedback from the discussion over the last few days. I think we would all be better for it to try to approach this kind of divisive topic in such a manner.

[CRaymond]

Slacker’s wording is murky but I don’t think his goal was to belittle TurboTaj specifically, but to bemoan the idea that Psylocke can and should represent the biracial experience... but even THAT was a misunderstanding of TurboTaj, when he lauded her complex identity as similar to that of a biracial experience.

It was the COMPLEXITY of her identity with respect to ethnicity that was important, not the arithmetic of her multi-ethnic experience.

[TurboTaj]

Slacker’s wording is murky but I don’t think his goal was to belittle TurboTaj specifically, but to bemoan the idea that Psylocke can and should represent the biracial experience... but even THAT was a misunderstanding of TurboTaj, when he lauded her complex identity as similar to that of a biracial experience.

It was the COMPLEXITY of her identity with respect to ethnicity that was important, not the arithmetic of her multi-ethnic experience.

Thank you. I think you probably articulated that better than I did.

I think I perhaps had an overly visceral reaction to some of the language that was used. My apologies. I've experienced that kind of language my whole life so when it is used I get a bit triggered

[CRaymond]

I've experienced that kind of language my whole life so when it is used I get a bit triggered

Anticipated, understood, and glad to help :-)