Madara vs. Son Goku

[abmccray]

Drunkard,

I can't check the specifics right now, but Piccolo's Demon Wave attack (open palm out) is the equivalent to Roshi's Turtle Wave (Kamehameha), both of which can be done with slight variations. I thought it was the island buster offhand, but Hazard posted exacts.

I was thinking of anime when I stated minutes of charge time, but it's still much longer than anything people are doing in an actual fight. First Roshi has to bulk up, then he does a longer kamehameha motion than any others done. Then it expels all of the energy gained when bulking up and he's completely drained. The important thing to note with timing is that everyone around him can see the power up phase, meaning it takes a great deal longer than the instant-kamehamehas everyone else is usin mid fight.

[Hazard]

As an aside, Goku (Namek Saga) can also spam regular Kamehameha:
http://i.imgur.com/FIemPST.png

I'll also point that there is some evidence, both in Dragonball and Galactic Patrolman Jaco, that the moon of the Dragon World is a cratered, tiny piece of rock not all that much larger than King Kai's own mini-world.

You mean the sequence at the beginning where his ship bumps against the moon?

[Estrecca]

You mean the sequence at the beginning where he bumps against the moon?

That would be the Jaco part of the evidence, yes.

[Hazard]

To be honest, I'd say that part is more Toriyama being really bad with scale.

Like, there are moments we can see the curvature of Namek and the blasts are supposed to be totally impressive and we're still seeing those little trees planted all over the place.

[abmccray]

Toriyama ALWAYS draws planetoids at small scale (a lot of times, just to show the person/ship/whatever around it). This has been going on since Dr. Slump, when Arale was punching planets but, in the scaled out view, was around 1/30 the size of the planet itself.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Drunkard,

I can't check the specifics right now, but Piccolo's Demon Wave attack (open palm out) is the equivalent to Roshi's Turtle Wave (Kamehameha), both of which can be done with slight variations. I thought it was the island buster offhand, but Hazard posted exacts.

I was thinking of anime when I stated minutes of charge time, but it's still much longer than anything people are doing in an actual fight. First Roshi has to bulk up, then he does a longer kamehameha motion than any others done. Then it expels all of the energy gained when bulking up and he's completely drained. The important thing to note with timing is that everyone around him can see the power up phase, meaning it takes a great deal longer than the instant-kamehamehas everyone else is usin mid fight.

In the manga, Roshi took off his shirt, Oolong noted that he was doing something, then he bulked up in one panel. After that, he explained that he was going to use the Kamehameha at maximum power. At that point, Yamcha started saying "Stop!!! That'll kill Goku!! All you have to do is cut off his...!!" And before he could get the word "tail" out, which was the vital information he was trying to pass on to the very reasonable and merciful Roshi to save his friend from being vaporized, Roshi entered the stance, said the entire attack, and fired it. Goku's Chou Kamehameha had a longer charge time, but he was able to stop it before firing it and insta-fire it later on, and it didn't even begin to drain him despite being well beyond what Roshi was capable of.

Firstly, I don't see why the regular palm-out attack and the one with the wrist being held are being considered the same attack instead of the former just being an uncharged random ki-blast since Piccolo spams the sucker and its literally no different than any other random ki-blast fired by anyone else, while the latter is an actual technique that has enough oomph to actually seriously injure himself if its turned against him since that's what actually happened. Yes, he was sweating a bit and panting for breath for a panel afterwards, but since just had a massive battle earlier that day where he drained himself and showed that he still needed significant charge time to fire his biggest blasts, and that he was sweating in fear from Oozaru Gohan's power before the blast and only panting while approaching the guy he decided sufficiently powerful that blowing up the moon would be easier than fighting against him, and that he was perfectly fine once he saw that Gohan was KO'd, I don't think that that's an indication of major power usage.

Considering that Goku was so much weaker than even old King Piccolo at the point that he could completely ignore a direct hit from a Kamehameha, there isn't really an indication of him needing to use a special technique to nearly kill him, anymore than Goku needed a special kick to take off the top of Drum's head after getting to be on the same tier as an uncharged young King Piccolo. As for comparing it to his city busting blasts, while it did use an open palm to fire it, it had an explicitly huge charge time for that attack (much longer than Roshi's moonbuster), which Goku even attempted to exploit the second time he used it, and left both his arms crackling with energy afterwards. In fact, since Piccolo's arms were crackling with energy when he did the doublehanded blast that Goku countered with his Chou Kamehameha, its probably safer to say that he just did the ground version of that move (or maybe more to say that that move evolved to become the one that Piccolo, Jr. used with both hands at once instead of just one hand at a time)

[The Drunkard Kid]

As an aside, Goku (Namek Saga) can also spam regular Kamehameha:
http://i.imgur.com/FIemPST.png




You mean the sequence at the beginning where his ship bumps against the moon?

Technically, Goku was spamming tiny Kamehamehas throughout the entire fight against Piccolo, Jr. (though admittedly not being fired simultaneously like that one) since he either hadn't figured out how to fly or was holding that trick in reserve. He was using the same double-curled-palm gesture and everything.

[Primetime Harder]

That would be the Jaco part of the evidence, yes.

Probably not what you meant, but here's more Jaco.

Jaco%u00252B3.jpg

[Hazard]

Technically, Goku was spamming tiny Kamehamehas throughout the entire fight against Piccolo, Jr. (though admittedly not being fired simultaneously like that one) since he either hadn't figured out how to fly or was holding that trick in reserve. He was using the same double-curled-palm gesture and everything.

He was totally holding back his flying ability throughout the entire thing.

It was great.

[Cody]

If Goku can get off a ki-blast before Madara can dimension dump him,

Madara lost that ability as soon as he took out the Sharingan in favour of the Rinnigan. It was Black Zetsu that transported him back via Obito's sharingan.

[Cody]

Madara is highly durable against physical attacks (taijutsu) and can regen from devastating injuries in moments while still fighting. He also has the ability to absorb chakra/ki (assuming their both similar) with the Preta Path, repel it with the Deva Path, or just cancel it out with the Orbs of Truth.

Madara could use the Human path to take Goku's soul.

He was getting completely messed up by Guy's hits yes. But comparing Guy, even at 8 gates to Goku at this point, is like comparing Bruce Lee to Spiderman. Madara does not want to get hit by Goku as much as he did by Guy or else he is going to be having a REALLY bad time.

And Madara isn't taking the soul from someone who is ludicrously faster than him.

Chakra and ki are not really similar enough to be treated as the same, especially when one is pure energy while the other isn't. He isn't blocking it, and even if he could? As what was pointed out before, he isn't blocking something on the scale Goku can dish out.

To be honest, I'd say that part is more Toriyama being really bad with scale.

Like, there are moments we can see the curvature of Namek and the blasts are supposed to be totally impressive and we're still seeing those little trees planted all over the place.

Yea, you can say that again. Just take a look at this:



Map of the universe. Everything else SEEMS to be drawn to scale, but the afterlife? Seems a bit bigger, with Snake way taking up a quarter of the universe..

Map was drawn by AT btw.

[Hazard]

He was getting completely messed up by Guy's hits yes. But comparing Guy, even at 8 gates to Goku at this point, is like comparing Bruce Lee to Spiderman. Madara does not want to get hit by Goku as much as he did by Guy or else he is going to be having a REALLY bad time.

And Madara isn't taking the soul from someone who is ludicrously faster than him.

Chakra and ki are not really similar enough to be treated as the same, especially when one is pure energy while the other isn't. He isn't blocking it, and even if he could? As what was pointed out before, he isn't blocking something on the scale Goku can dish out.

Getting messed up by Gai is absolutely no a knock against Madara.

The fact that Gai could him up at all and breaking his black barrier is HUGE.

Keep in mind one of the large Bijuu Dama from Juubi is arguably (by which I mean almost certainly) in the country busting range.

A weaker Tobi protects himself from four of those blowing with his barrier.

Gai breaks Madara's barrier and that's just with Evening Elephant.

[Cody]

Getting messed up by Gai is absolutely no a knock against Madara.

The fact that Gai could him up at all and breaking his black barrier is HUGE.

Keep in mind one of the large Bijuu Dama from Juubi is arguably (by which I mean almost certainly) in the country busting range.

A weaker Tobi protects himself from four of those blowing with his barrier.

Gai breaks Madara's barrier and that's just with Evening Elephant.

Not saying it was a bad showing on Madara. I was just pointing out that comparing Guy to Goku, even at this point, is like comparing Bruce Lee to Spidey. Madara may have taken hits from Guy, but Goku's hits are going to be a **** ton more damaging.

[Hazard]

Not saying it was a bad showing on Madara. I was just pointing out that comparing Guy to Goku, even at this point, is like comparing Bruce Lee to Spidey. Madara may have taken hits from Guy, but Goku's hits are going to be a **** ton more damaging.

There is really nothing saying Gai is any weaker than Goku at that point.

If anything Goku's max power is up in the air, because the moon busting feat only happens 5 years later.

[Hazard]

Chakra and ki are not really similar enough to be treated as the same, especially when one is pure energy while the other isn't. He isn't blocking it, and even if he could? As what was pointed out before, he isn't blocking something on the scale Goku can dish out.

There is no reason why he couldn't absorb it given that Chakra is already a mix of two different types of energies and Petra path has shown the ability of even absorbing Nature energy as well.

Physical, spiritual, and natural. The range is broad enough to not have any troubles with it.