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  1. #916
    Mighty Member Darth Kal-el's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exiled View Post
    I mean look at the Thor scene against the Beyonders. His not being able to lift the hammer was amazing. And Cap....people keep saying how out of character he is. I don't agree. He lost his youth, was betrayed by his friends, lied to by Tony, was told by the universe that there is no hope and humiliated publicly when Terrax made the announcement. Why wouldn't he act the way he has??? He is at the end of his rope. And he had a reason to chase the Illuminati. They were easier to get at than the Cabal. Also after they exhausted all options they were going to start destroying earths again. That is why they tried to steal the Cabal bombs and Tony ' s files.
    I agree I don't blame Cap at all. Between his Reminder book, original sin, and New Avengers he had been pushed to his limits by mostly his friends. Also it was great that Thor became worthy again right before the end. If this was the end for the 616 trinity they all went out the way they were supposed to. Thor, worthy. Cap, fighting for what's right. And finally Tony, revealed as the villain

  2. #917
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exiled View Post
    I mean look at the Thor scene against the Beyonders. His not being able to lift the hammer was amazing. And Cap....people keep saying how out of character he is. I don't agree. He lost his youth, was betrayed by his friends, lied to by Tony, was told by the universe that there is no hope and humiliated publicly when Terrax made the announcement. Why wouldn't he act the way he has??? He is at the end of his rope. And he had a reason to chase the Illuminati. They were easier to get at than the Cabal. Also after they exhausted all options they were going to start destroying earths again. That is why they tried to steal the Cabal bombs and Tony ' s files.
    Because Steve Rogers was a hero, or supposed to be. He should have acted that, right up to the end, instead of chase down the Illuminati. Yes, you make good points to why Steve Rogers was broken down, but can you break down Steve Rogers? It was no excuse for Steve to pick the easiest target, the Illuminati, instead of the Cabal. Granted, the end of the world was looming, and all your points about Steve being betrayed on so many levels are true.

  3. #918
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Kal-el View Post
    I agree I don't blame Cap at all. Between his Reminder book, original sin, and New Avengers he had been pushed to his limits by mostly his friends. Also it was great that Thor became worthy again right before the end. If this was the end for the 616 trinity they all went out the way they were supposed to. Thor, worthy. Cap, fighting for what's right. And finally Tony, revealed as the villain
    I don't see Tony as the villain, just very, very broken by forces outside of his control. It's the same with all of them. They were broke by forces way outside of their control. It all goes back to how they were never going to win.

  4. #919
    Mighty Member Darth Kal-el's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    By the time Secret Wars #1 finished, wherever Doom and the Beyonders were, they were still there. Thus the appearance of Dooms face at the end there.

    Did the shrinkage of the Multiverse happen at the start of "8 months before TRO"? If it was later, then maybe only a couple of Incursions happened between shrinkage and Secret Wars#1?

    Edit. The shrinkage happens in NA #29, (4 months to TRO), but 4 more issues of NA still take place, with Thor and Hyperion encountering Beyonders after the Doom/Beyonders supposedly drastic encounter. (Only 2 more Inversions encounter Earth 616 - the Cabal sent to UU, and Secret Wars#1). Yet, in NA#33 is where the drastic encounter happens? Curious? Maybe what happened in NA#33 didn't shrink the Multiverse, but coincidentally coincided with Secret Wars#1?
    In the beginning of the book Doom was talking about the white light of death and how it reveals God upon death, this God being the beyounders. At the end the multiverse is destroyed and the white light of death is seen again, this time with Doom's face

  5. #920
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    By the time Secret Wars #1 finished, wherever Doom and the Beyonders were, they were still there. Thus the appearance of Dooms face at the end there.

    Did the shrinkage of the Multiverse happen at the start of "8 months before TRO"? If it was later, then maybe only a couple of Incursions happened between shrinkage and Secret Wars#1?

    Edit. The shrinkage happens in NA #29, (4 months to TRO), but 4 more issues of NA still take place, with Thor and Hyperion encountering Beyonders after the Doom/Beyonders supposedly drastic encounter. (Only 2 more Inversions encounter Earth 616 - the Cabal sent to UU, and Secret Wars#1). Yet, in NA#33 is where the drastic encounter happens? Curious? Maybe what happened in NA#33 didn't shrink the Multiverse, but coincidentally coincided with Secret Wars#1?
    I assumed the Beyonders just sped up the incursions. They wanted to kill all life. Like Doom told Strange, isn't it better to save something than nothing at all?

    It's also why Doom started the incursions (kinda). It was to mess with the Beyonders' plan to blow up all the Molecule Men ending the multiverse. I can't wait til this week's #2 drops for answers.

  6. #921
    Extraordinary Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Acro View Post
    That said, I think it's entirely possible that what we see at the start of the comic is just reliving the moment Doom confronted them. No time has moved from the New Avengers issue. It can't be after that moment, because Doom would be dead or transported to Battleworld, or would have absorbed the Beyonders' power and begun to rule Battleworld, or successfully wiped out the Beyonders and solemnly looking on as reality collapsed anyway. Doom isn't on Battleworld, and we get the familiar Beyonder speech, so I'd presume the moment we see here is the same one that was reflected in New Avengers.
    Except that time has passed since the Illuminati observed that all but 22 universes had been destroyed.

  7. #922
    Extraordinary Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exiled View Post
    I mean look at the Thor scene against the Beyonders. His not being able to lift the hammer was amazing. And Cap....people keep saying how out of character he is. I don't agree. He lost his youth, was betrayed by his friends, lied to by Tony, was told by the universe that there is no hope and humiliated publicly when Terrax made the announcement. Why wouldn't he act the way he has??? He is at the end of his rope. And he had a reason to chase the Illuminati. They were easier to get at than the Cabal. Also after they exhausted all options they were going to start destroying earths again. That is why they tried to steal the Cabal bombs and Tony ' s files.
    Why? Because Captain America should always prioritize saving people over revenge. Period, end of story.

  8. #923
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Kal-el View Post
    In the beginning of the book Doom was talking about the white light of death and how it reveals God upon death, this God being the beyounders. At the end the multiverse is destroyed and the white light of death is seen again, this time with Doom's face
    But how does this explain that the shrinkage happened in NA#29, and 4 issues later in NA#33, Doom is still there on page, when he disappeared in 29?

  9. #924
    Extraordinary Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    By the time Secret Wars #1 finished, wherever Doom and the Beyonders were, they were still there. Thus the appearance of Dooms face at the end there.

    Did the shrinkage of the Multiverse happen at the start of "8 months before TRO"? If it was later, then maybe only a couple of Incursions happened between shrinkage and Secret Wars#1?

    Edit. The shrinkage happens in NA #29, (4 months to TRO), but 4 more issues of NA still take place, with Thor and Hyperion encountering Beyonders after the Doom/Beyonders supposedly drastic encounter. (Only 2 more Inversions encounter Earth 616 - the Cabal sent to UU, and Secret Wars#1). Yet, in NA#33 is where the drastic encounter happens? Curious? Maybe what happened in NA#33 didn't shrink the Multiverse, but coincidentally coincided with Secret Wars#1?
    The months countdown is just for the publishing of the stories. The story takes place after the 8 month gap, so no, there are not 4 months between seeing the number of universes cut down to 22 and this final Incursion.

  10. #925
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    By the time Secret Wars #1 finished, wherever Doom and the Beyonders were, they were still there. Thus the appearance of Dooms face at the end there.

    Did the shrinkage of the Multiverse happen at the start of "8 months before TRO"? If it was later, then maybe only a couple of Incursions happened between shrinkage and Secret Wars#1?

    Edit. The shrinkage happens in NA #29, (4 months to TRO), but 4 more issues of NA still take place, with Thor and Hyperion encountering Beyonders after the Doom/Beyonders supposedly drastic encounter. (Only 2 more Inversions encounter Earth 616 - the Cabal sent to UU, and Secret Wars#1). Yet, in NA#33 is where the drastic encounter happens? Curious? Maybe what happened in NA#33 didn't shrink the Multiverse, but coincidentally coincided with Secret Wars#1?
    Thor/Hyperion didn't happen after Doom's fight. When Doom arrives, Thorr's hammer is there. That means Thor/Hyperion's battle already happened. It may even be in progress when Doom arrives, though probably not because that's too unintentionally hilarious for this kind of story -- Doom sends his doomsday device in, only to see Thor and Hyperion accidentally blow the crap out of it... "No. NO!"

    So you have Doom/Molecule Man/Strange, the Beyonders, Thorr's hammer, that weird Beyonder Tree and possibly Hyperion/Thor, all in the vicinity. Unclear what caused the plan to bad, and unclear what happened to all of the above after the event... on to issue #2.

  11. #926
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Why? Because Captain America should always prioritize saving people over revenge. Period, end of story.
    There was no way to save anyone. The universe told Cap this. Granted Cap was wrong. But this is a story about people being pushed beyond their limits.

  12. #927
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Because Steve Rogers was a hero, or supposed to be. He should have acted that, right up to the end, instead of chase down the Illuminati. Yes, you make good points to why Steve Rogers was broken down, but can you break down Steve Rogers? It was no excuse for Steve to pick the easiest target, the Illuminati, instead of the Cabal. Granted, the end of the world was looming, and all your points about Steve being betrayed on so many levels are true.
    No doubt Steve was wrong. But There is no hope in this story. And he was broken.

  13. #928
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    The months countdown is just for the publishing of the stories. The story takes place after the 8 month gap, so no, there are not 4 months between seeing the number of universes cut down to 22 and this final Incursion.
    I understand the banner is irrelevant. I take no stock in the months countdown in TRO.
    Last edited by jackolover; 05-10-2015 at 07:13 PM.

  14. #929
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobo View Post
    Thor/Hyperion didn't happen after Doom's fight. When Doom arrives, Thorr's hammer is there. That means Thor/Hyperion's battle already happened. It may even be in progress when Doom arrives, though probably not because that's too unintentionally hilarious for this kind of story -- Doom sends his doomsday device in, only to see Thor and Hyperion accidentally blow the crap out of it... "No. NO!"

    So you have Doom/Molecule Man/Strange, the Beyonders, Thorr's hammer, that weird Beyonder Tree and possibly Hyperion/Thor, all in the vicinity. Unclear what caused the plan to bad, and unclear what happened to all of the above after the event... on to issue #2.
    I forgot about the Thorr hammer lying there. I'm going to have to go back and reconcile that with why 4 issues after NA #29, in NA#33, Doom and Beyonders are there again, yet Thor and Hyperian confront the Beyonders in NA #32.

    Edit. The Thorr hammer does indeed appear in NA#33, so this puts the linear timeline correct for Thor/Hyperian confronting Beyonders before Doom/Molecule Man confront Beyonders. So why does the Multiverse suddenly shrink down to 22 universes in NA#29?
    Last edited by jackolover; 05-10-2015 at 07:12 PM.

  15. #930
    Mighty Member Biclopcicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Why? Because Captain America should always prioritize saving people over revenge. Period, end of story.
    Yes. His speech to Kang, Iron Lad, and Immortus seems to contradict all his future actions. Well, he wasn't a crotchety old man yet either.

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