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  1. #46
    Ultimate Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptid View Post
    Again, I don't think that's quite right. It's true that Hickman is more focused on high concepts than interpersonal drama, so that there are fewer designated "character moments" in his stories. But the compensation is that his plots involve feuding factions with internal power struggles. His characters express themselves in how they align themselves and how they relate to their factions, so the plot expresses character as often as it overrides character. He operates at a high pitch of urgency that shows all the characters pushed to extremes, which makes casual scenes rare, but these big threats intensify the differences between Steve and Tony, T'Challa and Namor. The characters express themselves through their politics rather than their personal lives, but we still see their values, convictions, and limitations on full display.

    And this means that Hickman does better with characters who are as obsessed with the big picture as he is. He writes Reed Richards better than pretty much anyone (which must explain why he has written so many versions of Reed Richards). He writes a pretty good Iron Man, a good Doom, a good Beast, and a surprisingly good Smasher, a character both released and overwhelmed by the cosmic tapestry that she stumbles into. Casual characters like Spider-Man and Johnny Storm are not his strong-suit, in part because revealing the core of nobility beneath their goofy exteriors is old hat, but he writes them passably well as far as I'm concerned.

    Part of the issue is that few comics writers believe in writing tight plots. Bendis has his strengths, but economy has never been one of them. He writes many scenes that only do one thing: a fight happens, a motive is explained, two old friends chew the fat about nothing at all, a character makes a bold declaration of purpose. The side-effect of this style is that the comic talks about itself a lot, which helps with clarity, and there are scenes devoted to exploring the attitudes of characters in ways that are barely related to the main action. If you're used to that, Hickman looks cold. But if you're used to something like Hitchcock or Raymond Chandler, where the plot gradually uncovers the characters by their choices and attitutudes toward the main action, then someone like Bendis looks incredibly loose and sometimes sloppy. So it's a matter of style and perspective, for sure, and there's no reason you shouldn't like what you like, but I don't think that Hickman ignores his characters. He reveals them in terms of his plot, which makes his stories lack intimacy without lacking personality, I think.
    This was a nice apology for Hickmans style and a decent criticism of Bendis' style. I think both writers have their uses depending on the circumstances. Certainly, during Bendis' era, there were no big epic cosmic problems to deal with, it was ordinary in-house Earth based, and Manhattan based usually drama. Once we got to Heroic Age, Marvel had to find someone that was going to need to step away from the crusty interactions between people and their personal politics, and just lock in a game face to address bigger issues. From that perspective, Hickman approached the Avengers, and he pushed it towards the inevitable crisis point.

  2. #47
    Everlasting Love Necromantic's Avatar
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    I have not followed any of the Avengers books at all, and I thought this was an amazing start to an event. Well written, and expertly drawn.

    I'm ready for issue 2!

  3. #48
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    You know what's weird and sort of funny and sad?

    I just saw Age of Ultron this afternoon, and I actually felt really, really sad because I couldn't get it out of my head that just the other day, the 616 Marvel ended...

  4. #49
    Self-Loathing Bendis Fan
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    Reading this, I felt the same way I've been feeling about the Avengers books since Bendis left them behind...

    ...like it's all targeted at an uber-hip Comic Con sci-fi crowd that's used to dealing with the principles Hickman's playing with.

    Seriously, I don't mind being the only one to admit it, but... most of this issue was a laborious read for me (which is really just an ego-sparing way of saying it flew over my head). There are several pages I had to re-read twice, and I'm still not sure I understood what happened. I gave up on pages before I understood them.

    I felt the same way reading Crisis way back in the day, but I'd simply figured I was too young for the material. Also, I had just passing knowledge of DC.

    It's way more embarrassing that I'm feeling the same way about Marvel characters I'm supposed to know inside out. None of them talk or behave like they did under Bendis, or any other 21st century writer. I sometimes can't tell which version of a character I'm even looking at.

    I want to like this, I really do. But after 1 issue, I'm feeling the same indifference I felt throughout Secret Invasion, Fear Itself, Original Sin, and Age of Ultron (Bendis' biggest misstep ever). In other words, I'm going into this with the lowest expectations ever and still not feeling engaged in this story.

    I'll give it one more issue. If it's more of the same, I'll sit things out 'til conclusion.

    I guess when it comes to this guy's writing, you're either all in or you're not. Has that been a profitable philosophy for marvel to adopt with its flagship properties? (I'm asking seriously, I haven't looked at sales in years.)
    Last edited by _underscore; 05-09-2015 at 10:04 PM.

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member RobinFan4880's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _underscore View Post
    Reading this, I felt the same way I've been feeling about the Avengers books since Bendis left them behind...

    ...like it's all targeted at an uber-hip Comic Con sci-fi crowd that's used to dealing with the principles Hickman's playing with.

    Seriously, I don't mind being the only one to admit it, but... most of this issue was a laborious read for me (which is really just an ego-sparing way of saying it flew over my head). There are several pages I had to re-read twice, and I'm still not sure I understood what happened. I gave up on pages before I understood them.

    I felt the same way reading Crisis way back in the day, but I'd simply figured I was too young for the material. Also, I had just passing knowledge of DC.

    It's way more embarrassing that I'm feeling the same way about Marvel characters I'm supposed to know inside out. None of them talk or behave like they did under Bendis, or any other 21st century writer. I sometimes can't tell which version of a character I'm even looking at.

    I want to like this, I really do. But after 1 issue, I'm feeling the same indifference I felt throughout Secret Invasion, Fear Itself, Original Sin, and Age of Ultron (Bendis' biggest misstep ever). In other words, I'm going into this with the lowest expectations ever and still not feeling engaged in this story.

    I'll give it one more issue. If it's more of the same, I'll sit things out 'til conclusion.

    I guess when it comes to this guy's writing, you're either all in or you're not. Has that been a profitable philosophy for marvel to adopt with its flagship properties? (I'm asking seriously, I haven't looked at sales in years.)
    Nothing in this comic is that confusing, really. You just have to buy into the core concept.

    Universes are colliding. To prevent a disaster, you have to blow up the Earth that is colliding with yours. The process has whittled away all of the Earths save the main Marvel Earth (616) and the Ultimate Marvel Earth (1610). The two are now colliding together. The heroes from both worlds are sent out to fight the heroes of the other world in an effort to buy their smartest individuals the time to achieve their end-of-the-world goals (for the 616 Earth, that means a life raft filled with the smartest and best people from the planet). The Ultimate Universe has better tech and cooler toys but the 616 Earth has far more meta-humans. The war is destructive and, ultimately, futile. The planets collide and the universes explode.

    Now there is only Battleworld, a constructed planetoid made up of bits and pieces of different universes.

    As for Hickman, he is very much a writer that favors the long form of comics. He includes hints and clues throughout his entire run, most of which do not become relevant until much, much later in the series. He is like Grant Morrison in that way. His writing is dense and plot driven. Your experience with Bendis is the other extreme, where characters are the focus, not really the plot or story.

    Both approaches are 100% legitimate. Both sides have their fans and detractors. One style is not empirically better than the other. Its just what you find more interesting.

  6. #51
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    From what I am reading, I am so happy I quit the MU when secret wars was announced (around NA #30). I cannot believe that while millions of americans are viewing an Avenger movie, Marvel has nothing better to do than publishing comics so absurdly inaccessible...

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by AC/DC View Post
    From what I am reading, I am so happy I quit the MU when secret wars was announced (around NA #30). I cannot believe that while millions of americans are viewing an Avenger movie, Marvel has nothing better to do than publishing comics so absurdly inaccessible...
    The event as a whole doesn't seem that hard to follow. The tie-ins in particular seem to be completely new concepts for the most part.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member Abe's Avatar
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    New fact to notice : now Doom seems to be GOD (according to what Reed says about the white light and what appears in the last of the famous Hickman's white pages - I love them !). And he has been "with us all along" !...
    Isn't it enough to be excited about SW ? And, at least, try to have a look to New Avengers 33 ?
    I must say I'm pretty excited !

  9. #54
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    So, is Doom a god, or he is now God?

    And where would that put The One Above All, who in this case must be Hickman.

  10. #55
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    I picked up issues 1 and 2 of Secret Wars today and enjoyed them quite a bit. However, I have some sympathy for those people who are a bit confused by what is going on. I think that the core concepts of the story leading to this point are, as someone above pointed out, quite straightforward: universes are colliding and being destroyed, it was down to two universes, and now it is down to one planet: Battleworld, which is a construct created by Doom. However, there are many, many details from the main story that has been unfolding over the past few years which remain, as far as I can tell, still unexplained. I hope that they do not stay that way.

    Some of those unexplained events: the obvious one: why were the Beyonders destroying the multiverse anyway? Was it really just a whim? That seems ridiculous. And what has happened to the Beyonders? Did Doom successfully defeat them? Why did Doom's confrontation with the Beyonders lead to the sudden implosion of most of the remaining universes? And (I expect this might be answered before the end) what about The One Above All? If anything should bring It out of the background it is this kind of event.

    The many different factions involved in the stories are also confusing: I know the Black Swans were Doom's religious order, as Doom fought to destroy Molecule Mans who were, apparently, the Beyonders' bombs in each reality - a concept that I still find confusing and difficult to reconcile with the rest of the story. The Black Priests - well, I'm not sure about them anymore. They were led by Strange, but they were also destroying worlds - to what end?(This may have been explained, but it is something of which I have lost track). And where do the Builders, the Makers and the other beings who were involved in the last cosmic war fit in here? They seem to have no purpose any longer, other than being groups caught in a destruction of the universe they could not understand.

    One other question: why was Earth the focus of this in every universe?

    Some of these questions may have been answered at some point in the series and I just lost track of the answer at some point. But I do think that this has been a remarkably complex series and it is easy to understand why many people are turned off.

    I am looking forward to this series and I have high hopes. But Hickman's writing is cold and the characters are lost in the play of big ideas and forces.

  11. #56
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    Yes, some of the questions have been answered and hopefully the ones that have not will be. However, we are just at issue 2 (of 8) so there is plenty of story left to tell.

  12. #57
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    At this point, most of the ivory kings,black priests, and so forth is immaterial. All you need to know and accepts is that this is Doom's world and we are just living in it.There is a threat to the religion of Doom is the Cabal, the Beyonders, and the non believers. Accept it and enjoy all that pretty art

  13. #58

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    Finally read Secret Wars #1 last night. WTF just happened? Wow. Lame.

  14. #59
    Spideyparker75
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    Im as green as anyone coming into Secret Wars. I had read Avengers # 44 before this and as I have said despite not really knowing too much I enjoyed it. So I knew why Captain America and Iron Man werent in this. They had been knocking the stuffing out of each other in Avengers. Both were presumably dead at this stage.

    I enjoyed this. Big explosions, big moments, deaths, it reminded me of a Michael Bay Transformers movie. lol. Of course I dont know whats going on with everyone, I still dont know why one universe was attacking the other but I still enjoyed it. I took my time reading it and from what I can make out both universes collided and now all thats left is battleworld presided over by Dr Doom. Some survived on a raft others havent.

    Its not War and Peace we are reading. Or Anna Karenina lol its a comic book. I enjoyed it and Ill read it again.

    Nice start to it. Thanks to everyone here and elsewhere for helping me to enjoy this more then I would have.

    Excelsior my friends.

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