Could have Geoff Johns have saved the pre-Flashpoint Superman?

[Pharozonk]

The man wrote some of the best Superman stories of the post-COIE Superman and was keen on re-introducing pre-COIE and Donner film elements into his stories, which was a great formula in my book. Plus, we all saw how badly JMS sunk the franchise once he took over. Had DC given Johns, and possibly Grant Morrison better control over the character before the reboot, it probably would have been in much better shape.

EDIT: Can a moderator remove that extra "have" in the title? Thanks!

[DochaDocha]

To be fair, I thought Superman started declining badly long before JMS finished off the operation by running it into the ground.

I'll just say Johns' latest run on the Superman isn't exactly something I'd cite as evidence that he could've saved the sinking ship back in 2008. Maybe if Johns got to be the Czar of all things Superman, maybe he could've done it, but his latest go-round doesn't make me especially optimistic that he would've accomplished what we would've wanted.

[Pharozonk]

To be fair, I thought Superman started declining badly long before JMS finished off the operation by running it into the ground.

I'll just say Johns' latest run on the Superman isn't exactly something I'd cite as evidence that he could've saved the sinking ship back in 2008. Maybe if Johns got to be the Czar of all things Superman, maybe he could've done it, but his latest go-round doesn't make me especially optimistic that he would've accomplished what we would've wanted.

I blame that on the fact that the Nu52 is so removed from the pre-COIE and Donner elements that made Johns' first run so great. Johns has a lot of flaws as a writer, such as love of gratuitous violence, but I will readily admit he used to be the best at combining old school continuity with modern sensibilities to appeal to a broad audience. His early JSA and first Flash run were good examples of that.

[Auguste Dupin]

Doubt it. Frankly, everything after the Legion of Superheroes arc (so, about half his run) was kinda bad and boring.

[The Dork Knight]

Johns had the best run on Superman since the late 80s. Haven't read his new 52 stuff yet but yes, absolutely , based on what he was putting out at that time, Johns could have " saved " Superman with a Green Lanternesque or my favourite , JSA- esque run on the character

Instead we got the whole new Krypton nonsense :/ , followed by JMS' awful run

edit: Johns should have stayed till the end of the New Krypton stuff. The arc(s) had a lot of potential but were poorly handled imo

[manofsteel1979]

The man wrote some of the best Superman stories of the post-COIE Superman and was keen on re-introducing pre-COIE and Donner film elements into his stories, which was a great formula in my book. Plus, we all saw how badly JMS sunk the franchise once he took over. Had DC given Johns, and possibly Grant Morrison better control over the character before the reboot, it probably would have been in much better shape.

EDIT: Can a moderator remove that extra "have" in the title? Thanks!

I honestly think pulling so much from pre-COIE and Donner is ultimately what doomed Pre-Flashpoint Superman. I'll elaborate later tonight when I get home from work.

All I will say now is that unless sales had a huge upswing following NEW KRYPTON,NOTHING was going to save Pre-FP Superman. In fact he was dying a slow death from 2003 on IMO.

[Flash Gordon]

SUPERMAN AND THE LEGION OF SUPERHEROES was rock solid, even if it didn't fully capture "my" LEGION.

But yeah, no, he couldn't. For the most part Johns writes a really terrible Superman.

Also it's important to remember Johns was one of the guys that torpedoed Pre-Flashpoint Superman. NEW KRYPTON was his baby, and it wasn't a TERRIBLE idea, but he abandoned it and it became a total train wreck that lead to some of the worst Superman comic books I've ever read outside of Chuck Austen.

[The Dork Knight]

SUPERMAN AND THE LEGION OF SUPERHEROES was rock solid, even if it didn't fully capture "my" LEGION.

But yeah, no, he couldn't. For the most part Johns writes a really terrible Superman.

Also it's important to remember Johns was one of the guys that torpedoed Pre-Flashpoint Superman. NEW KRYPTON was his baby, and it wasn't a TERRIBLE idea, but he abandoned it and it became a total train wreck that lead to some of the worst Superman comic books I've ever read outside of Chuck Austen.

How does Johns write a " really terrible Superman"?

[Pharozonk]

But yeah, no, he couldn't. For the most part Johns writes a really terrible Superman.

I feel that he was one of the few post-COIE Superman writers to understand the differences between Clark Kent and Superman as different personas. Most other writers just made them the same character.

[Blacksun]

I blame that on the fact that the Nu52 is so removed from the pre-COIE and Donner elements that made Johns' first run so great. Johns has a lot of flaws as a writer, such as love of gratuitous violence, but I will readily admit he used to be the best at combining old school continuity with modern sensibilities to appeal to a broad audience. His early JSA and first Flash run were good examples of that.

Johns really is more oriented to classic versions of the character, so when you take that out he loses ground.

I think the ship of pre 52 sailed on the moment new krypton storyline started, and in the middle of it Johns simply got out of superman books. the mess was so big that it doomed pre 52 superman

[Ascended]

No. I have no faith in Johns' ability to write Superman. He did amazing work with the JSA, Hawkman, Green Lantern, Booster Gold, and Vibe (and likely a couple others Im forgetting. Oh! Aquaman!). I love Courtney "Stargirl" Whitmoore and his Wally run on Flash was exactly what the Rogues needed. But he doesnt really get what makes Superman work; Johns lacks the nuance the character requires and puts too much stock in the post-Crisis mindset (which was one of the lowest points in Superman history despite the wondrous Triangle Era). And I think he's far too enamored with the Donner films. I love those movies as much as the next fan, but they shouldn't be the basis for someone's understanding of the character as a whole, nor the foundation of the mainstream continuity.

I enjoyed, for the most part, Superman and the Legion, but that was a Legion story with Superman in it, not a Superman story (I would love to see Johns seriously tackle the Legion, he might be what that franchise needs). Last Son was good as a stand-alone story but again, far too much Donner for what I want out of the mainstream continuity (it would have made a better movie than Superman Returns though). Brainiac was lots of fun and came really damned close to being a great Superman story but Johns missed the point of what/how the threat of Brainiac is supposed to be portrayed when he made it a physical confrontation, and that's a pretty fundamental misunderstanding. Secret Origin was boring, bland, and easily one of the worst comics I have had the misfortune of reading, and New Krypton was a trainwreck of an interesting idea (and this was before he left the project) and his latest run was, from everything I have seen, generic to the detriment of the character and story.

Johns can do whatever he likes in the DCU and most of the time it'll be solid work. But he cant get a grip on Superman and the franchise would be better off with him as far away as possible.

[Pharozonk]

Secret Origin was boring, bland, and easily one of the worst comics I have had the misfortune of reading,]

I heartily disagree. It was probably the best version of the origin story since the pre-Crisis original.

[Ascended]

More power to you then, and Im glad someone enjoyed Secret Origin. But for my money, I wish I had never even heard of it.

[WillieMorgan]

I heartily disagree. It was probably the best version of the origin story since the pre-Crisis original.

Yeah, I've got to go with him on this Ascended. 'The worst comic you've had the misfortune of reading'? Are you sure about that??

To put my twopenneth in relating to John's handling of Superman and whether he could have 'saved' the character pre-New52, I somewhat doubt it. The original Johns run ticked all my personal nostalgia boxes and was (mainly) a terrific run for me. Thing is, it pretty much relied on that 'nostalgia' element. It was awesome fun to fans of a certain age and comic-book mentality but I could never see that approach taking hold permanently. There are always going to be readers that have no affinity with that period of Superman history (usually younger but obviously not in Pharozonks case). Johns run was a nice throwback to what, for me, were great days following the character when I was younger but we can't stay anchored to that Donner-fueled interpretation of the character forever. DC don't publish comics purely for my personal enjoyment. Plus, it came unstuck during the New Krypton saga in spectacular fashion.

[Auguste Dupin]

I heartily disagree. It was probably the best version of the origin story since the pre-Crisis original.

I keep forgetting it even exist, despite the fact I've read it.