Could the Flashpoint reboot have been avoided?

[GlennSimpson]

Comics buyers do not reward that behavior. They reward mega events, reboots and cross-overs.

Nor have they ever. Comics have always been about putting an exciting cover (often with a gorilla) to "trick" someone into buying a book.

Julius Schwartz used to make up ideas for crazy covers then have a writer create a story to match the cover. There has never been a time when comics did/could rely on pure quality of storytelling.

[GlennSimpson]

Hi Glen,

I get what you are saying, but I have to respectfully disagree with you. It seems to me that you are championing the cause that a long and storied continuity can weigh a potentially good story down, perhaps even ruining it. I submit that this all depends on the writer and editor. A great example of a writer making DECADES of continuity work for him would be James Robinson. Along with the much missed Archie Goodwin, Robinson made STARMAN one of the finest examples of comic book literature ever. This was done without disregarding good and bad stories from DC continuity, but rather by using old stories as building blocks to what their vision ultimately was in creating the character and world of Jack Knight (Gads, I miss Jack!). Or what about Waid on FLASH? Goyer and Johns on JSA? Thomas on All Star Squadron? Brubaker on Captain America? As a reader, I appreciate characters that exist in a four colored world that has HISTORY. There is something quite generic and uninspired about total reboots every three-five years because editorial or a star writer can't be bothered with adding to an intricate and beautiful tapestry.

The above now said, I do acknowledge that I am now in a seeming minority with my opinion on this matter, at least on this board.

It's not so much that I think it's impossible for a writer to leverage the continuity, i just think that some fans assume that any writer, if properly motivated, can do so. Or that just because this writer did it, DC can find enough other writers who want to do so to fill all of their books. Yes, there are a few continuity-fan writers, but there are also a lot of other writers who are capable of writing great stories but not under the foundation of a bunch of continuity. And DC needs those writers to fill out their publishing line.

It's not about someone being wrong about how it could work or how it should work, but rather simply a matter of facing the reality of the situation.

And really, I consider James Robinson a poor example since he kept calling Black Canary 1 "Diana".

[The Darknight Detective]

But the thing is, Marvel has ALWAYS had higher numbers than DC the exception of things like Watchmen or Dark Knight.

Well, DC did own most of the '60s due to Marvel's distribution woes, but certainly DC has been trailing since I was a preschooler back in the late '60s.

I kind of wonder if DC doesn't have an image problem that simply making the characters more realistic isn't going to fix.

Well, when you still have people today who repeat the moldy mantra about how different DC and Marvel are when it hasn't really applied since I was in elementary school, then I do believe it's more of an image problem than one of quality.

The whole point of the COIE was to streamline the universe and make it more believable.

Well, that's what we were told it was (because almost all businesses will try to hide the truth from us if possible), but it really was to stop DC from plummeting off a cliff (which it did stop). If sales had been surging, COIE as we know it would never have happened.

But Marvel was still beating them in terms of numbers. It's sort of like with Microsoft. They became the standard and everybody just kind of took them for granted. To some degree, DC never got over the SA. Even after removing a lot of those elements. They put them back in an effort to appease the old school fans (in all fairness, myself being one of them) and it didn't take. Marvel gets a realism pass by default. Whether or not they did anything to earn it. I think shows like Arrow and Flash help. So did the Nolan Batman movies. But it's not a long term fix. I think DC needs to pull in the same kind of numbers for their movies, especially for the harder to believe characters like Superman, in order for things to really turn around. I don't know if the current DCCU can do that.

The DCCU may be indeed be the key to finally change things. Since I believe the next two WB movies will be very popular, that will be a big help.

[Stingo]

It's not so much that I think it's impossible for a writer to leverage the continuity, i just think that some fans assume that any writer, if properly motivated, can do so. Or that just because this writer did it, DC can find enough other writers who want to do so to fill all of their books. Yes, there are a few continuity-fan writers, but there are also a lot of other writers who are capable of writing great stories but not under the foundation of a bunch of continuity. And DC needs those writers to fill out their publishing line.

It's not about someone being wrong about how it could work or how it should work, but rather simply a matter of facing the reality of the situation.

And really, I consider James Robinson a poor example since he kept calling Black Canary 1 "Diana".

LOL! Sorry Glen, we are gong to have to agree to disagree on my example of Mr. Robinson as being a champion of continuity being a boon versus a bane on storytelling. A misspelling of a name - which Robinson later acknowledged and corrected in future stories that mentioned the Golden Age Black Canary - does not a bad example make, especially when comparing to DC's junking of 75 years of continuity. Now THAT'S an oversight I can't forgive.

Again, I do respect your opinion on this, it just radically differs from mine. Thanks for the response my friend.

[RobinFan4880]

Nor have they ever. Comics have always been about putting an exciting cover (often with a gorilla) to "trick" someone into buying a book.

Julius Schwartz used to make up ideas for crazy covers then have a writer create a story to match the cover. There has never been a time when comics did/could rely on pure quality of storytelling.

I always love reading/hearing that story.

[Jim Kelly]

I always love reading/hearing that story.

[Blacksun]

I think the new 52 influenced Arrow and Flash quite a bit. Same goes to constantine. Even Suicide Squad took lots of references from new 52.

Arrow influenced new 52 Green arrow, also new 52 took the costume from smallville tv show. Flash has little to do with new 52, it is a nice blend of waid, johns Flash.
Only suicide squad took only one reference from new 52, that is the add of harley quinn. Ayer pretty much used Ostrander suicide squad as reference, he tweeted pics.;

[LP22]

In the end of the day the reboot was made for one purpose-to Boost sales,and it did just that it gave DC A shot in the arm in terms of sales(they still sell better then the pre-reboot).

Although I agree with people who say that they could've done a Relaunch Instead of a Reboo,but let's face it DC's long history and Continuity was really a turn off for a lot of people.

The reboot gave a lot of people a great jumping on points for ther books,and It translates into sales today

[Blacksun]

From what I've read here and there over the years, this reboot was not even planned until higher ups (WB) ordered it to be done.

It was at that point that Flashpoint was re-written to reboot the entire DCU as opposed to the summer storyline it was originally planned to be.

It's also been revealed that a number of titles were planned with the teams used post-Flashpoint before there was ever talk of a reboot. Those titles are:

Justice League (Johns and Lee)
Batman (Snyder/Capullo)
Aquaman (Johns/Reis)
Green Lantern (was to remain unchanged)
Red Lanterns
Swamp Thing (Snyder)
The Flash (Johns)

If I remember correctly, there was also talk of Morrison taking over a Superman title after Grounded wrapped up. That could be a rumor, however.

At some point, an edict was issued that demanded a huge increase in sales in the publishing division, including a digital initiative. I've also read speculation (Bleeding Cool) that the WB's plans for Man of Steel and the legal battle over Superman were also part of the decision to do a full reboot.

I honestly think the titles listed above, along with new series and teams, a full exploitation of the Multiverse concept, digital release, and increased marketing and a plan similar to what Marvel did with Marvel Now! could have been more than enough to stave off a reboot.

I think that was the case, WB wanted more sales and then Didio and Co opted for the easier way to do things: reboot.
It's a quick solution that fall down pretty quickly. Marvel was quickly to take their market share back and DC sales kept dropping a lot

[The Darknight Detective]

Best part of that story was Maggin and Ollie sounding exactly the same way.

[The Darknight Detective]

I think that was the case, WB wanted more sales and then Didio and Co opted for the easier way to do things: reboot.
It's a quick solution that fall down pretty quickly. Marvel was quickly to take their market share back and DC sales kept dropping a lot

Except DC's sales are still much better than they were at the time of the reboot, so I don't why I keep reading this. It's simply not true.

[The Darknight Detective]

In the end of the day the reboot was made for one purpose-to Boost sales,and it did just that it gave DC A shot in the arm in terms of sales(they still sell better then the pre-reboot).

Although I agree with people who say that they could've done a Relaunch Instead of a Reboo,but let's face it DC's long history and Continuity was really a turn off for a lot of people.

The reboot gave a lot of people a great jumping on points for ther books,and It translates into sales today

DC needed something really big and done quickly, so the reboot made more sense than a mere relaunch.

[manofsteel1979]

I think in terms of Superman, one of the biggest influences on the constant origin problems was Smallville. The show did a good job combining elements of the pre-and post-Crisis universes and DC wanted to do the same thing. So we got Birthright, which I loved and to this day wish they'd kept. But a lot of post-Crisis fans didn't like the fact that their version had been taken away and you can't just shoehorn a new origin into a continuity that was too ingrained into the old one. Too many elements of already established continuity were built around the post-Crisis origin. Clark being a jock in high school, the cyborg building his body out of the birthing matrix and Lois figuring out he was a fake by pointing out how Clark didn't have most of his powers growing up. Most of Return of Superman would have to have been thrown out for Birthright to work.b Then there was the timeline issues surrounding his first appearance. Which was hinted to be after 9/11. Not really workable when you're trying to establish that he's been around for a decade and it only happened two years earlier.


Plus, Smallville wasn't exactly universally loved by all Superman fans. A lot of people didn't like what they saw as essentially a soap opera being the basis for their favorite comic. I loved Smallville; I loved Birthright. But you don't get to come in after the fact and say the last fifteen years no longer count because you want to do this now. It was handled poorly and DC paid the price for it. Keep in mind, we didn't even know what his origin was for like four years after IC. And I think part of that was because DC didn't either. So when Secret Origin came out in 2009 it tried too hard to be all things to all fans and fell on their faces because pre-and post-Crisis fans want polar opposite things. I also think that by the mid-nineties, a lot of people at DC suddenly realized that stripping away all the SA stuff from Superman took away a lot of the toys they had to play with. So they started to try to find ways to put some of them back in the sandbox. We got Kandor back as early as 1996. And the electrical powers and Brainiac 13 are clearly the results of people who were out of ideas. The Return to Krypton storyline where they tried to put the SA Krypton into the post-Crisis universe was sort of the straw that broke the camels back at that point. They wanted to use the SA again and they were determined to find an excuse to do so.

This is why I support the New52 origin. It's simple and clean enough to follow yet open enough you can put some of the older elements into it without being campy. I'm just sorry everyone else had to get rebooted as well to get it. It almost seems like Superman is sort of holding everyone else back to some degree, much as I hate to say that. I think most of what came after COIE was just to fix him too.

The troubles DC had with Superman makes me wish the SUPERMAN 2000 concept had been implimented. It used the parameters of Byrnes reboot and worked out from there, and would have brought a lot of the toys DC wanted to use back without having to reboot anything or come up with a new origin etc. I started a thread about that a little while back that has gone quiet...perhaps i will resurrect it soon.

And what you layed out above about Birthright is dead on. I love it as an origin and wish it was used as THE origin now...but I hate Hate HATE how it was dropped willy nilly into Post-Crisis continuity in a manner that was destructive. I think that move effectively ended the Post-Crisis Superman and the DCU...it just limped along for another 9 years until FLASHPOINT.

[Blacksun]

Except DC's sales are still much better than they were at the time of the reboot, so I don't why I keep reading this. It's simply not true.

it is dropping or was before the mini-relaunch. It's on the short period of time and it was at cost of bigger DC properties

[The Darknight Detective]

it is dropping or was before the mini-relaunch. It's on the short period of time and it was at cost of bigger DC properties

Again, sales are much better than they were a few years ago (especially when you factor in digital's growth since the reboot), so saying the opposite is kind of fatiguing.