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  1. #781
    Incredible Member darthjoker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flag View Post
    Some originality is a nice thing from the supposed House of Ideas.
    Now that you mention that. I just remembered something Joe Quesada once said when asked if they would EVER do a Ultimate Universe/616-Marvel crossover: "IF we EVER do a crossover between the 2 universes it means we have run out of ideas"

  2. #782
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthjoker View Post
    Now that you mention that. I just remembered something Joe Quesada once said when asked if they would EVER do a Ultimate Universe/616-Marvel crossover: "IF we EVER do a crossover between the 2 universes it means we have run out of ideas"
    Do people have to bring this up EVERY time we have a discussion about UU/616? It's barely relevant at this point, the statement by Joe Q was made a decade ago and the first occasion of 1610 crossing over with 616 happened 3 years ago now. The point you are trying to make is stale, and has already been countered by Joe Q in a 2006 interview:

    I often hear fans complain that four years ago I said something and it looks like with a certain decision - whatever it is - I went against what I said four years ago, three years ago, six years ago ... whatever. Here’s what I don’t understand...
    Why don’t I have the right to change my mind?
    Why don’t I have the right to grow with my job, to learn from it and the people I work with?
    Of course I enter my position here as Editor-in-Chief with my own set of ideas and goals and for the most part I stick to them because they’re global and they involve on core ideal, which is to bring the fans the best books possible to the best of our god-given abilities.
    Now that said, and outside of that, why can’t I change my mind or my point of view as long as it's towards getting to that core ideal? I don’t run editorial with an iron hand. Before we make big decisions, I always take in everyone's opinions and sometimes the right argument will change my mind and in some cases my core beliefs about comics.

  3. #783
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthjoker View Post
    Now that you mention that. I just remembered something Joe Quesada once said when asked if they would EVER do a Ultimate Universe/616-Marvel crossover: "IF we EVER do a crossover between the 2 universes it means we have run out of ideas"
    I agree as to the lack of relevance here. When you consider that the Ultimate Universe series of comics was undergoing a death by attrition, you might as well send them off with a big bang.

  4. #784
    Veteran Member Jack Flag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthjoker View Post
    Now that you mention that. I just remembered something Joe Quesada once said when asked if they would EVER do a Ultimate Universe/616-Marvel crossover: "IF we EVER do a crossover between the 2 universes it means we have run out of ideas"
    I remember that quote as well.

  5. #785

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudman View Post
    Do people have to bring this up EVERY time we have a discussion about UU/616? It's barely relevant at this point, the statement by Joe Q was made a decade ago and the first occasion of 1610 crossing over with 616 happened 3 years ago now. The point you are trying to make is stale, and has already been countered by Joe Q in a 2006 interview:
    He can change his mind, doesn't make his statement less relevant. ... I'd say it was about 3 years ago when they really started running out of ideas.

  6. #786
    Mighty Member Baron of Faltine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudman View Post
    Do people have to bring this up EVERY time we have a discussion about UU/616? It's barely relevant at this point, the statement by Joe Q was made a decade ago and the first occasion of 1610 crossing over with 616 happened 3 years ago now. The point you are trying to make is stale, and has already been countered by Joe Q in a 2006 interview:
    Yes, sadly. Welcome to the internet where every single phrase or word uttered in idfferent times by different person in different context will be used against you and whatever you stand for just to forcefully justify ones oen biased opinion.
    Yep this resume good bunch of post around these boards.

  7. #787
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    He can change his mind, doesn't make his statement less relevant. ... I'd say it was about 3 years ago when they really started running out of ideas.
    I don't think you can argue that a ten-year-old quote that was taken back only a year after being said is in any way relevant to the current state of affairs, let alone warrants being brought up so frequently as though it is proof of Marvel running out of ideas.

    Plus what Joe Q said was that he'd 'rather close down one universe than have them cross over because it meant they were officially out of ideas'. Secret Wars is indeed crossing the two universes, but for the purpose of shutting down one of them, thus rendering the quote practically moot when it comes to a discussion of Secret Wars. It could be relevant to a discussion of Spider-Men, Cataclysm or All New X-men if you really wanted it to be, but it serves no purpose in this case.

  8. #788
    Mighty Member Baron of Faltine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    He can change his mind, doesn't make his statement less relevant. ... I'd say it was about 3 years ago when they really started running out of ideas.
    Running out of ideas for Ultimate universe...DON'T SAY!!! I liked it but i knew form day one that couldn't last. Eventually every ongoing fictional universe develope the same problem. And for the Utimate U it was less a case of running out of ideas than "we used our best ideas elsewhere" , main 6161 uivers, personal indie project and so on.
    Also...
    I'm allowed to say a thing? We all fill our mouth with words like "new ideas" and "originality" but apart from those concepts being strongly dependants on previous background(stuff you read,/watch/experiences/elaborate -you can say 2+2=4 only when you known what 2 means, what + means and more importantls the meaning of the 4 and how 4 is still 2 and 2 while definitally being 4) none is talking about an important series of words: "good stories", "Quality", "fun". Three(ok four) words pivotal in enjoyment of comics. Originality and new ideas(even if just brwsing a little Tv tropes you realize there is a certain not limit, but more a range of ideas that are possible in stories...something that russian formalism and other literary study proved. So the whole concept of orignality should be put in the right perspective in a "original use of a known trope" ) does not necessary translated in something worth reading. Or watching.
    This does not means that everythign should crystalize(i'm opposed to that too) or that we have to expose ourself to the same characters doing the same thing with the same results for 20 + years(a thing that serial comics eventually fall into. Withtout a real ending or possible progression, stuck in an eternal sliding present it is inevitable. Let's accept it!). But is better clear that we should focus on if a story is good and fun to read. If the experience is a good pleasurable experience.
    Instead seem tha tmost negative comment seem...focused not on the overarching complex, metatestual commentary on teocracy, rebellion, freedom, obedience, and the inherent crapsack nature of marvel universe where 9 universe out of 10 are essentially social nightmares. No we are focused on the fact that we are not exposed ot the same stuff we used to, that there are cross references to a world and stories that exist, because writers are not writing in an hollow empty space, with only the knowledge of their language as help. And lamenting what?
    Seheesshhe some people around here just like to lamenting and whine for the sake of lamenting and whine. At leas the complexers whine and alment and annoy but show some shred of logic behind that, they DO have some point, but here..
    YEs i'm saying that lot of the negative comment about Secret War is way below "tHe complex" in term of dignity, decency and logic. DEAL WITH IT!

  9. #789

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    Running out of ideas for Ultimate universe...DON'T SAY!!! I liked it but i knew form day one that couldn't last. Eventually every ongoing fictional universe develope the same problem. And for the Utimate U it was less a case of running out of ideas than "we used our best ideas elsewhere" , main 6161 uivers, personal indie project and so on.
    Running out of ideas in both Ultimate and 616. Ultimate has it's main issue as that the characters were still just the same but different. Writer's reimagined characters they rarely created them at first meaning over time readers would go back to the characters they know and love. Ultimate needed to come up with something new and they did in Miles, one of the best things to come from it.

    Also...
    I'm allowed to say a thing? We all fill our mouth with words like "new ideas" and "originality" but apart from those concepts being strongly dependants on previous background ...
    YEs i'm saying that lot of the negative comment about Secret War is way below "tHe complex" in term of dignity, decency and logic. DEAL WITH IT!
    No, I get you, the idea of originality in comics is hard. After 50 years of stories, an original idea is hard to come by especially as they are the same characters written about month after month. Yet, I wouldn't say writers were having a hard time of it 5 or 10 years ago, some great stuff was being written with the same characters as always.

    I'm not talking SW but Marvel in general. I mean, Terregen (sp?) mist bomb goes off and empowers loads of people, 12 years previous, that was the main idea behind Earth X. Earth X also had a female Thor (although that actually was Thor not just someone else with the hammer). From what I've read in Marvel over the last 3 years, the best stuff has been the stuff less heavy on changes to characters or big events but personal stories of the characters with good characterisation. This is where I feel Avengers and in turn SW has failed, I don't feel it is present (yet).

  10. #790
    Nothing is safe TakoM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    Running out of ideas in both Ultimate and 616. Ultimate has it's main issue as that the characters were still just the same but different. Writer's reimagined characters they rarely created them at first meaning over time readers would go back to the characters they know and love. Ultimate needed to come up with something new and they did in Miles, one of the best things to come from it.
    No, I get you, the idea of originality in comics is hard. After 50 years of stories, an original idea is hard to come by especially as they are the same characters written about month after month. Yet, I wouldn't say writers were having a hard time of it 5 or 10 years ago, some great stuff was being written with the same characters as always.

    I'm not talking SW but Marvel in general. I mean, Terregen (sp?) mist bomb goes off and empowers loads of people, 12 years previous, that was the main idea behind Earth X. Earth X also had a female Thor (although that actually was Thor not just someone else with the hammer). From what I've read in Marvel over the last 3 years, the best stuff has been the stuff less heavy on changes to characters or big events but personal stories of the characters with good characterisation. This is where I feel Avengers and in turn SW has failed, I don't feel it is present (yet).
    I don't want to fight about anything but first the ideas from Earth-X were copied a lot into the 616 over time sometimes only to end up with a twist and some of them are already erased (Mr.Hydra).

    I'm not sure who said it but I someone wrote a year ago that Marvel has problems to come up with new ideas so I see no argument about that. I mentioned in another thread I see the problem behind this in the not using but erasing of new setting that can be used for new stories.(same goes for some characters) It is shame because Marvel was in the 90th as the house of ideas known but it feels very copy&paste these days. It is true bringing new ideas from outside and mix them with what already is in the MCU most not be called "copy&paste" but when the story seems to tear apart everything, people look closer and find the ideas which were copied from somewhere else.(NA/SW/GOT<-STU/MOS).

    If we talk about the "Times runs out" arc which lead to SW I think in this form it is an idea you can only use once like a super big one-way bazooka. When I trying to be more specific what went wrong I would say that the marketing in Marvel makes it impossible to use your creativity free, at least that seems for me so(I'm not working for Marvel).

    Okay example when I would work for Marvel as author I would use placed/characters which are interesting but rarely/never used, some examples assume Franklin's original Heroes Reborn Earth is back in its home dimension and still exist. I would write a story about Ashema being the head buncho while trying not be involved too much in human affairs and giving Jolt the command to form a superhero team while Jolt on the other hand tries to solve the cosmic mysteries while she and her team fight supervillians(took me 10 minutes to come up with this idea)...maybe I call this team New Thunderbolts.

    In real I started to write a fanfiction which plays in the MCU about a new "let say complex personality" character which counter the incursion story in his own way. I have issue 2 at 80% but I hadn't time and muse to continue. Let see I have until the point I wrote 2(3) ideas I never heard in MCU.

    The point is if you exaggerate thing it will become chesy like hell but at the moment things are too much pressed in a form which comes from (it seems) higher up.

  11. #791
    Veteran Member Jack Flag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    Running out of ideas for Ultimate universe...DON'T SAY!!! I liked it but i knew form day one that couldn't last. Eventually every ongoing fictional universe develope the same problem. And for the Utimate U it was less a case of running out of ideas than "we used our best ideas elsewhere" , main 6161 uivers, personal indie project and so on.
    Also...
    I'm allowed to say a thing? We all fill our mouth with words like "new ideas" and "originality" but apart from those concepts being strongly dependants on previous background(stuff you read,/watch/experiences/elaborate -you can say 2+2=4 only when you known what 2 means, what + means and more importantls the meaning of the 4 and how 4 is still 2 and 2 while definitally being 4) none is talking about an important series of words: "good stories", "Quality", "fun". Three(ok four) words pivotal in enjoyment of comics. Originality and new ideas(even if just brwsing a little Tv tropes you realize there is a certain not limit, but more a range of ideas that are possible in stories...something that russian formalism and other literary study proved. So the whole concept of orignality should be put in the right perspective in a "original use of a known trope" ) does not necessary translated in something worth reading. Or watching.
    This does not means that everythign should crystalize(i'm opposed to that too) or that we have to expose ourself to the same characters doing the same thing with the same results for 20 + years(a thing that serial comics eventually fall into. Withtout a real ending or possible progression, stuck in an eternal sliding present it is inevitable. Let's accept it!). But is better clear that we should focus on if a story is good and fun to read. If the experience is a good pleasurable experience.
    Instead seem tha tmost negative comment seem...focused not on the overarching complex, metatestual commentary on teocracy, rebellion, freedom, obedience, and the inherent crapsack nature of marvel universe where 9 universe out of 10 are essentially social nightmares. No we are focused on the fact that we are not exposed ot the same stuff we used to, that there are cross references to a world and stories that exist, because writers are not writing in an hollow empty space, with only the knowledge of their language as help. And lamenting what?
    Seheesshhe some people around here just like to lamenting and whine for the sake of lamenting and whine. At leas the complexers whine and alment and annoy but show some shred of logic behind that, they DO have some point, but here..
    YEs i'm saying that lot of the negative comment about Secret War is way below "tHe complex" in term of dignity, decency and logic. DEAL WITH IT!
    I agree with all you said but the basis of Ultimate Universe was very dark and cynical. It was like an oppressive dourness to it - that is cool - not everything can be bright and fun - we like reading scary and dark stuff also - but it had no fun counterbalance - maybe Ultimate Spider-Man had it's fun stories but barely.

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