SECRET WARS #2 Spoilers

[Iron Maiden]

I read somewhere on this thread that Doom loses sometimes because he subconsciously wants to. Like Thanos. In my mind nothing could be further than the truth. In fact I would argue with anyone that there is NOBODY in the Marvel Universe that has the strength of identity that Doom has. He was even able to enter Wakanda's Vibranium vaults and win a trial with the Panther God based upon WHO he is and how certain he is in his vision and ability to have order in the world. What made this issue great is that he finally did it. No matter how that plays out Doom won. Just by the simple fact that he was able to save something during the collapse of the multiverse.

And yet it doesn't explain why he lost so badly to Scott Lang without even striking a blow. I excuse it by:

- The Living Tribunal showed up
- He felt guilty about Cassie's death. I think even if you look back at the panel, he lets loose an energy blast falling backward after she struck him for crushing Lang between his hands like a mosquito (and he missed anyway)

Yeah, I do agree with some of that but Reed hasn't shown up yet. Usually, that's his Kryptonite. That's not to say he's had his victories here and there as when he was able to save Sue's life and deliver Val safely.

[runguy]

I didn't like Secret Wars #1 that much. I was a little worried about this issue (and the series as a whole). Secret Wars #2 completely changed things- I thought that it was fantastic! I can't wait for Secret Wars #3, and I hope that it has as many pages as this meaty book. The only (tiny) complaint I have about SW 2 is that the head Thor died a too easily against Corvus. Maybe he's not dead, or maybe the various Thors aren't as powerful individually as 616 Thor

Really, this should have been the first issue of Secret Wars. The story in Secret Wars 1 and Ultimates The End should have been combined in some way and released as the final issues of Hickman's Avengers and New Avengers.

Actually issue 2 originally was the first issue and Hickman went back and wrote issue 1. As far as how the older Thor died (as someone pointed out), it was from 3 different weapons by the Black Order so pretty badass

[Rosebunse]

I'd be more worried about Thanos.

Thanos is worrisome, especially since he's the Big Bad of the MCU. Now's a good time for Marvel to push him.

And I'm a prominent proponent of the theory that Doom is running Battleworld while also fighting a losing battle against the Beyonders. What makes Thanos scary is that he knows Doom. Namor knows Doom, Maximus knows Doom. Ultimate Reed doesn't know Doom or any of them. He's the odd man out, and he's without his City and seemingly without his own people. Plus, if Doom knew what Ultimate Reed had done, he'd punish him.

This is what doesn't make sense to me, how would Ultimate Jamie live? And Brian is no longer in a coma and Ultimate Meggan doesn't even exist. These people are not from any 1 world. Even then, why would Doom bother? Did he just catch whoever was 'falling' at the time, which means all of these beings are either 616 or Ultimate as those were the only 2 left? We know that's not true due to other 'lands' in Battleworld.

...So yeah, bit confusing to say the least.

I don't get that High Avalon is based on the Ultimate versions, but rather they're just some random version Doom picked up because they can maintain the order.

[vitruvian]

Regardless, Doom is obviously not any of those things since he has a) the Thors and the Barons to keep order and b) asks his Barons what they were doing and where certain things are hidden. If Doom were a true god and not just a mortal with lots of power, then he wouldn't need a bureaucracy, a police force or a government.

The Marvel Universe has long had plenty of gods who were not quite omnipotent or omniscient, though. Those are only attributes of 'true gods' in some beliefs, not all.

[vitruvian]

I read somewhere on this thread that Doom loses sometimes because he subconsciously wants to. Like Thanos. In my mind nothing could be further than the truth. In fact I would argue with anyone that there is NOBODY in the Marvel Universe that has the strength of identity that Doom has. He was even able to enter Wakanda's Vibranium vaults and win a trial with the Panther God based upon WHO he is and how certain he is in his vision and ability to have order in the world. What made this issue great is that he finally did it. No matter how that plays out Doom won. Just by the simple fact that he was able to save something during the collapse of the multiverse.

So Emperor Doom never happened?

[Haquim]

This is what doesn't make sense to me, how would Ultimate Jamie live? And Brian is no longer in a coma and Ultimate Meggan doesn't even exist. These people are not from any 1 world. Even then, why would Doom bother? Did he just catch whoever was 'falling' at the time, which means all of these beings are either 616 or Ultimate as those were the only 2 left? We know that's not true due to other 'lands' in Battleworld.

...So yeah, bit confusing to say the least.

He probably didn't choose who to save. He salvaged the "chunks of reality" he could and fused them togheter. Some of those had the Ultrons, Zombies and Annihlation Wave so he later created the shield to keep them out. That's at least my theory.

[Milton Fine]

I think Doom will be overthrown, The Cabal are the serpents that have entered into his Eden and they will eat away and destroy this Battleworld bringing disastrous consequences. I also don't think the Maker will survive very long in his relationship with Thanos.

I wont be surprised before this series ends if that wall comes down causing unforeseen chaos and death.

[Rosebunse]

I find myself feeling bad for Doom. He does appear to be trying. And what's worse? He does appear to care about his family, the Fantastic Four/Future Foundation. He wouldn't have saved them and set them up the way they are if he didn't love him in his own way.

But we know he's going to fail.

[Haquim]

A side note: in D&D terms Doom shifts between being LE and LN, while Thanos shifts between CE and CN.

In this story it seems to me Doom is written as LN and Thanos as CE. So of course he'll try to destroy Doom's ordered world.

[exiled]

So Emperor Doom never happened?

I am not saying Doom is flawless. But he certainly does not have the chronic condition of self defeat like Thanos. Wrong again.

[Biclopcicle]

So Emperor Doom never happened?

That was awesome.

But didn't the old school OGNs exist outside of canon? Either way, that story is perfectly in line with who Doom is. I found a "greatest Doom stories" list on CBR- from it I read that, Triumph & Torment, Books of Doom, and the FF story where he stole the power cosmic from the silver surfer. Such a great read leading up to SW. I recommend all who haven't that are reading SW to do the same

[vitruvian]

That was awesome.

But didn't the old school OGNs exist outside of canon? Either way, that story is perfectly in line with who Doom is. I found a "greatest Doom stories" list on CBR- from it I read that, Triumph & Torment, Books of Doom, and the FF story where he stole the power cosmic from the silver surfer. Such a great read leading up to SW. I recommend all who haven't that are reading SW to do the same

I'd say that Doom is self-sabotaging, but in a different way from Thanos. Where Thanos ends up losing due to a hidden low sense of self-worth and quest for affirmation by Mistress Death among others, Doom ends up losing due to arrogance and genuinely seeking to challenge himself. Same effect in the end, very different personalities.

[Scorponok]

I think Doom will be overthrown, The Cabal are the serpents that have entered into his Eden and they will eat away and destroy this Battleworld bringing disastrous consequences. I also don't think the Maker will survive very long in his relationship with Thanos.

I wont be surprised before this series ends if that wall comes down causing unforeseen chaos and death.

If anything the Cabal would worm their way into Doom's favor, until they take over. That way they'll use his empire to get rid of the 616 survivors first.

[ShaokhaN]

No, not by virtue of being omnipotent. That means all-powerful, not all-knowing.

The word you're searching for is omniscient.

At the same time, though... ,-) (from the 1st Secret Wars)



But yeah, nothing yet indicates Doom is omnipotent per se.

[Iron Maiden]

That was awesome.

But didn't the old school OGNs exist outside of canon? Either way, that story is perfectly in line with who Doom is. I found a "greatest Doom stories" list on CBR- from it I read that, Triumph & Torment, Books of Doom, and the FF story where he stole the power cosmic from the silver surfer. Such a great read leading up to SW. I recommend all who haven't that are reading SW to do the same

I remember that list and was glad some of my faves were ahead of "Unthinkable " For a more detailed list, just go to page 1 of the Doom Appreciation thread. Some are more obscure like Priest's "Masks" from Marvel Double Shots or a nice little team up piece by Gerry Conway in the Sub-Mariner's solo series from the Silver Age.

I'm pretty sure you would have to consider Triumph and Torment canon. It's been mentioned in some handbooks IIRC that Doom had achieved his goal of releasing Cynthia von Doom's soul from Hell.
Many writers have used that to justify Doom's skills at sorcery ...after all he did get private lessons from Doctor Strange