SECRET WARS #2 Spoilers

[Iron Maiden]

I find myself feeling bad for Doom. He does appear to be trying. And what's worse? He does appear to care about his family, the Fantastic Four/Future Foundation. He wouldn't have saved them and set them up the way they are if he didn't love him in his own way.

But we know he's going to fail.

A lot of people like to choose Magneto as a multi-faceted character but IMO that was done long ago with Doom and before Claremont began Magneto's rehabilitation. To be fair, Magneto did lack a back story which is something Lee and Kirby took care of with Doom by FF annual #2. Stan and Jack just didn't seem as interested in doing the same for Magneto.

Both men have been wronged by society. Both had a family that was taken away from them quite violently. Doom's origin was done at a time when mention of the Holocaust in a comic book would be highly unusual. After all, they still were mainly marketed to younger readers. But young Victor's origin was unusual in that is was a very sympathetic origin, more so than earlier one for the Mole Man who was also an outcast. Victor's family and tribe were persecuted simply because they were gypsies. When his father is taken away in a futile attempt to cure the baron's wife, Victor asks Boris why are they taking him away. Boris tells him "he is a gypsy, boy. It is the price we must pay"

Hickman had that great little monologue by Doom in that dinner scene with Namor back in NA #23. He does take on the responsibility of caring for all Latverians even though many of them probably had spurned his people prior to his reign. Magneto has slain people in the name of his cause and tends to look at all non-mutants negatively. Doom has not marched scores of Latverians off to gas chambers as a part of any purge. He only took vengeance against the baron who was responsible for his father's death. Of course, different writers have had different takes on how Doom relates to other Latverians. I think it's safe to say that Waid and Hickman don't see eye to eye on that one.

[Byakko]

It can't do anything if he is dead.
Secret Wars 0 showed that even a reality wrapper such as Franklin is useless against an incursion.

Forget the path of reality wrapper.

It's been stated that Wiccan'll appear in the House of M Secret Wars tie-in, somewhere in issue #03. So he's not dead, we know that. The question is when that particularly tie-in is actually gets published (should be next month hopefully).

We can never forget the reality warpers because at the end of the day, they're the most malleable plot device to use, so either yes, they have to be killed off, or they have to held off until a time when the writers decide okay, let them showcase their powers and do whatever we want. Molecule Man sort of did it in the first Secret War (my memory might be fuzzy, I just recall him combining back with the Beyonder to form a cube again).

[Biclopcicle]

I remember that list and was glad some of my faves were ahead of "Unthinkable " For a more detailed list, just go to page 1 of the Doom Appreciation thread. Some are more obscure like Priest's "Masks" from Marvel Double Shots or a nice little team up piece by Gerry Conway in the Sub-Mariner's solo series from the Silver Age.

I'm pretty sure you would have to consider Triumph and Torment canon. It's been mentioned in some handbooks IIRC that Doom had achieved his goal of releasing Cynthia von Doom's soul from Hell.
Many writers have used that to justify Doom's skills at sorcery ...after all he did get private lessons from Doctor Strange

All good points- would be a shame to waste such a fantastic story anyway. Will check out the list on Doom appreciation thread!

[jackolover]

Not to repeat myself but I think things went as follows:

-Doom challanged the beyonders, he had spent 25 years becoming Rabum Alal, charging himself with the power of faith from all over the multiverse thanks to his cult and this allowed him to be able to have a chance against the Ivory Kings.
-Doom wasn't ENTIRELY succesful. As the clash with the beyonders accelerated the rate of decay of reality. He was still fighting them when the 616 and the 1610 earths crushed into each other.
-While still in conflict with the beyonders Doom salvaged the pieces of the multiverse he could and patched them togheter creating battlew... ehrm Latverion. He also estabilished himself as its god and appointed Strange as his sheriff, he also gave power to barons in order to keep order (no justice really, Doom wants order, nothing more if the one mantaining it are evil like sinister he cares not as long as they don't challange him and his rules)
-Doom did what he did while still fighting the beyonders and HE IS STILL LOCKED IN A BATTLE WITH THEM. That's why Latverion is composed by patches, why he salvaged things like the zombies, the ultrons and the annihilation wave, he could NOT do finer manipulation. He just saved everything he could and locked the most dangerous elements out from the rest of his planet.
-As Doom is still fighting an immortal and supremely powerful opponent that wants nothing more than the destruction of everything he needs a constant influx of power. That power comes from the faith of the people of battleworld in him. That's why unbelief is dealt with so harshly and Strange is so worried about breaches of faith. DOOM NEEDS THE PEOPLE OF BATTLEWORLD TO BELIEVE HE'S GOD, OTHERWISE HE'LL LOSE AGAINST THE BEYONDERS AND THEY'LL DESTROY EVERYTHING!
-That means Battleworld is NOT Doom's ideal world. It's just what he could do to save reality given the circumstances he's in. Also, promoting disbelief really is dangerous as Doom is literally what's keeping reality togheter!

Except for the 25 years being only 13 years, and, Doom not still fighting Beyonders and no faith power up, this seems reasonable. I don't see that Doom still has to be fighting Beyonders. The Molecule Man can construct Battleworld just fine and hold it together. But certainly your concept of the hectic putting together of whatever Doom could find rings true, and separating the good from the bad parts then has a reason.

I think Battleworld is it. Wherever the Beyonders are, they can't find this place. Maybe it's between realities, in that white space. There could be a final reconning with Beyonders after this is all done, to establish that universes can exist and it all goes back to some sort of normality.

[Rosebunse]

I just hope Doom takes out Ultimate Reed...or Thanos. Someone needs to take him out.

And what is 616 Reed going to do when he sees what Doom-who probably had the best of intentions-has done to his family?

[jackolover]

?

None of those are afterlives. Heaven, Hell (i.e., Mephisto's realm where Doom's mother would be), Hel's realm of Niflheim, Hades, Valhalla, those are what I'm asking about.

As for the sun, we know there's some sort of space in which Battleworld exists, since Knowhere will be orbiting it. The origin story the new Thor recounts includes the creation of "life-giving suns". Earlier in the Thors scene, the existence of stars is mentioned, although there are supposedly fewer than there once were. When they pass through to where the Cabal's raft is (indicating that Battleworld is a flat world with an underside!), we also see plenty of stars. I think we can be pretty sure that Doom (or whoever else) set Battleworld up in a 'solar system' (or Battleworld system, with a sun going around it like in ancient myth) with a sun to give sufficient light and heat.

I was just commenting on other non-alternate reality worlds.

I didn't realise the reverse world had stars. I'll have to revisit that to see them. My interpretation of the mythology recited by the young Thor (about stars appearing, and the older Thor saying a star disappeared every year till now there were hardly any), was just to explain the lack of a universe around them. But I like the flat Earth concept you have there.

I know it seems like it's flat but.... it can't be. Look at the map. It is a continuous landmass that wraps around, and the shape of the map itself indicates a sphere. It could be we are looking at something like a hollow planet, and (somehow) the Cabal's life raft ended up INSIDE it.... or alternately, Battleworld itself is what's on the inside of the sphere, like a Dyson Sphere, and the liferaft is on the outside.

Certainly, we can't see what's on the other side not facing us, I think, but the map appears to be a unravelling of a Spherical map because it's in the shape of a elongated oval, so it could show all the front and back of a sphere. That leaves little room for a reverse side of Battleworld, unless it is a portal to another dimension, or teleports the person to another Battleworld location. But if it was a portal then you would generally cross over still standing upright. This reverse gravity thing definately looks like a flat Earth underneath.

Yes, it is. I think there's a lot of things tied up with the intangibles like faith in god, believing a story etc.

edited to add. And when it comes to the power of story, who had more of it that Marvel's launching pad comic the Fantastic Four? Doom probably is the most storied character in the MU along with the FF themselves. They're going be major players I suspect. We just haven't seen where they all ended up yet.

I don't think there's anything tied to faith. The Planet do the Apes used faith to hide the truth, not to have some existential power to fight Beyonders. Doom is just trying to not disturb the peaceful integrity of his little world, and as soon as they see the wrecked Statue of Liberty on a beach, the whole thing falls apart like a stack of cards. I don't see faith being any more sinister than that.

[jackolover]

This issue made me laugh out loud. It was like Prince Valiant mixed with that Adventure Time episode when the Ice King wrote fanfiction and wanted it to come to life but then regretted it.

What was that episode about? Please clarify?

[dzub]

so do we suspect that Ult. Reed will turn out to be the big bad in Secret Wars?

hmm.what makes you say so?
i feel he's like just reacting to problems instead of creating them.

[Gritterr]

Any thoughts as to why galactus looks like a giant Tony Stark. Chest rt, repulsor gauntlets, he even has a goatee. Any chance miles is a stow away on the cabal raft? When was the last he was seen in SW1?

[jackolover]

I didn't like Secret Wars #1 that much. I was a little worried about this issue (and the series as a whole). Secret Wars #2 completely changed things- I thought that it was fantastic! I can't wait for Secret Wars #3, and I hope that it has as many pages as this meaty book. The only (tiny) complaint I have about SW 2 is that the head Thor died a too easily against Corvus. Maybe he's not dead, or maybe the various Thors aren't as powerful individually as 616 Thor

Really, this should have been the first issue of Secret Wars. The story in Secret Wars 1 and Ultimates The End should have been combined in some way and released as the final issues of Hickman's Avengers and New Avengers.

Time ran out. Hickman was on the clock and had to release in May. That's why Last Days are being released so late. LD's should have released well before Secret Wars started, but TRO.

This. We've known for a while that there was a merged 616/1610 Manhattan as one of the areas, and it's confirmed at the end of this issue. Right next to Doomgard and Doomstadt too, presumably so Doom can keep a close eye on his erstwhile foes and be really, really sure that the memory implants are holding. So, anybody who was alive in either Manhattan when that final Incursion completed, and wasn't seen to die from something other than the Incursion itself, can be presumed to be alive and well but thinking that Manhattan has always been there since the creation of Battleworld/Latverion.

I can't remember. Is there going to be a Secret Wars Manhattan book?

[Wikoogle]

Except for the 25 years being only 13 years, and, Doom not still fighting Beyonders and no faith power up, this seems reasonable. I don't see that Doom still has to be fighting Beyonders. The Molecule Man can construct Battleworld just fine and hold it together. But certainly your concept of the hectic putting together of whatever Doom could find rings true, and separating the good from the bad parts then has a reason.

I think Battleworld is it. Wherever the Beyonders are, they can't find this place. Maybe it's between realities, in that white space. There could be a final reconning with Beyonders after this is all done, to establish that universes can exist and it all goes back to some sort of normality.

I think the multiverse is a simulation/experiment being run by the beyonders. The reason the beyonders can't find battleworld is because it's not on the hard drive, it's located on either the bios or the ram of the computer. That's what the white space is. I posted my full theory in this thread... http://community.comicbookresources....-a-Simulation)

But, imo, the basic gist is...


A. All of reality is a simulation (an experiment as Hickman described it) run by higher beings (beings represented by the Beyonders inside the simulated reality). The beyonders are just representations of the beings, like computer code, similar to the mapmaker code trying to trace back the source of the incursions. The higher beings that the beyonders represent are inaccessible to anyone inside the simulation. By the way, if it's not clear, I'm using the components that a computer needs to function purely as an analogy. It's the easiest way I could come up with to describe the role each piece plays in Hickman's story.

B. The higher beings (manifested inside the simulation as the beyonders) are ending the simulation and the molecule man is our perception of the code that will terminate the simulation. Entities like The Living Tribunal and the ex nihilo serve important core functions in the BIOS that oversee the simulation and seed it with life. Galactus serves a role analogous to a hard drive defragger. Thus, as powerful as they seem, they are merely a part of the simulation and no longer serve a function now that the simulation is ending.

C. Doom found out 25 years ahead of the termination date and the incursions are the byproduct of him trying to save the simulation. His actions effectively recruit multitudes of intelligent entities in the simulation towards the task of preventing the simulation from being terminated.

D. Battleworld is analogous to a computer's boot OS built by doom by salvaging parts of various realities. It is hidden inside the BIOS aka the white space of the "computer (just an analogy)" running the simulation. It's likely that The Living Tribunal existed in the BIOS since The Living Tribunal is a security protocol for the entire simulation/multiverse. This is why The Living Tribunal's code is being used as a life raft to transport a handful of survivors over to the BIOS.

E. Once the Beyonders finish shutting down the original simulation and effectively reformat the hard drive, this boot OS (battleworld) will serve as the interface that allows Franklin Richards to recreate the multiverse from inside the BIOS itself.

[Wikoogle]

I just hope Doom takes out Ultimate Reed...or Thanos. Someone needs to take him out.

And what is 616 Reed going to do when he sees what Doom-who probably had the best of intentions-has done to his family?

I love ultimate reed. He and his city are far more multidimensional and far more interesting than Thanos. I also think he could kick Thano's butt.

He built the raft that saved Thanos. On his raft, he filled it with the critical elements/people salvaged from the city needed to remake the new world in his own image. I could see him taking over Battleworld, not Thanos.

If he doesn't try to take over Battleworld, I actually could see him and Doom getting along pretty well.

[jackolover]

I think the multiverse is a simulation/experiment being run by the beyonders. The reason the beyonders can't find battleworld is because it's not on the hard drive, it's located on either the bios or the ram of the computer. That's what the white space is. I posted my full theory in this thread... http://community.comicbookresources....-a-Simulation)

But, imo, the basic gist is...


A. All of reality is a simulation (an experiment as Hickman described it) run by higher beings (beings represented by the Beyonders inside the simulated reality). The beyonders are just representations of the beings, like computer code, similar to the mapmaker code trying to trace back the source of the incursions. The higher beings that the beyonders represent are inaccessible to anyone inside the simulation. By the way, if it's not clear, I'm using the components that a computer needs to function purely as an analogy. It's the easiest way I could come up with to describe the role each piece plays in Hickman's story.

B. The higher beings (manifested inside the simulation as the beyonders) are ending the simulation and the molecule man is our perception of the code that will terminate the simulation. Entities like The Living Tribunal and the ex nihilo serve important core functions in the BIOS that oversee the simulation and seed it with life. Galactus serves a role analogous to a hard drive defragger. Thus, as powerful as they seem, they are merely a part of the simulation and no longer serve a function now that the simulation is ending.

C. Doom found out 25 years ahead of the termination date and the incursions are the byproduct of him trying to save the simulation. His actions effectively recruit multitudes of intelligent entities in the simulation towards the task of preventing the simulation from being terminated.

D. Battleworld is analogous to a computer's boot OS built by doom by salvaging parts of various realities. It is hidden inside the BIOS aka the white space of the "computer (just an analogy)" running the simulation. It's likely that The Living Tribunal existed in the BIOS since The Living Tribunal is a security protocol for the entire simulation/multiverse. This is why The Living Tribunal's code is being used as a life raft to transport a handful of survivors over to the BIOS.

E. Once the Beyonders finish shutting down the original simulation and effectively reformat the hard drive, this boot OS (battleworld) will serve as the interface that allows Franklin Richards to recreate the multiverse from inside the BIOS itself.

Well then, the Battleworld is an imbedded code put there by Doom, and the Beyonders are going to get a shock when they try to shut it down, because it will release as a virus and take over Beyonder space.

I read somewhere on this thread that Doom loses sometimes because he subconsciously wants to. Like Thanos. In my mind nothing could be further than the truth. In fact I would argue with anyone that there is NOBODY in the Marvel Universe that has the strength of identity that Doom has. He was even able to enter Wakanda's Vibranium vaults and win a trial with the Panther God based upon WHO he is and how certain he is in his vision and ability to have order in the world. What made this issue great is that he finally did it. No matter how that plays out Doom won. Just by the simple fact that he was able to save something during the collapse of the multiverse.

Can't argue there. Maybe they should put up a statue to Doom when All New, All Fresh Avengers comes out. If Doom does get recognized to be the one who saved the Multiverse from crashing by Beyonder, then he should be given that recognition.

[Rosebunse]

hmm.what makes you say so?
i feel he's like just reacting to problems instead of creating them.

I think it's more about how he's reacting to them. He's far better at destroying worlds than anyone else, and he's just not as sorry about it as 616 Reed ever was. Now, you could argue that 616 Reed and Ultimate Reed basically did the same thing, and you would be right, but there was just something about the way Ultimate Reed sacrificed the Ultimate Universe that was...sickening.

[Hulkout42]

Doom has no equal.

The only one capable of defeating Doom is Doom himself. Doom and not Richards. Definitely not Richards.

Heh, Squirrel Girl and her army of bushy tail friends would disagree.