Marvel Universe - Destroyed As Punishment, or Resilient and Survives?

[jackolover]

I have to wonder that if the Super Heroes again do what they did in the 616, the same thing will happen again, because of some perceived wrong doing? Or is it just a random Event that the Beyonders picked to have an experiment, but Supers were fortunate to survive, and still have a reality into which they can reside?

So, were super heroes punished for their lies piled up over the years, or are they a resilient bunch that outlasted the Beyonders and were preserved in a reality to which they could return, once NuMarvel restarts?

I can't help this feeling the 616 was destined for destruction some how, just because of how their heroes ended up. It could be that Civil War created a climate that made Super Heroes spiral down into morally compromising States, that had no other conclusion but to destroy themselves. You would think the struggle between morally sound and corrupt forces was an ongoing tension that couldn't end. But seeing what the 616 was at the beginning, (with likes of poor role models like Stark, Banner, Richards, Parker in his earliest before Ben died, Hank Pym, Murdoch who professes law but dishes out punishment), did it ever have a chance at all? The 616 was such a chaotic mish mash of conflicting strong emotions, that they couldn't be quelled, starting with normal humans victimising mutants, and erupting in Super humans, with their uncontrollable urges.

[The Fury]

Doom caused this, not the Beyonders, not the 'heroes'. The experiment the Beyonders were doing wasn't even meant to occur for anther 12 years or so in Marvel time. And they might have changed their mind. Although the idea of 'heroes' is a long time gone in the MU. I think there are maybe only 5 actual heroes left.

616 has been destroy a few times has it not? and reconstructed, this is no different, the 616 will live on.

[dragonmp93]

Doom caused this, not the Beyonders, not the 'heroes'. The experiment the Beyonders were doing wasn't even meant to occur for anther 12 years or so in Marvel time. And they might have changed their mind. Although the idea of 'heroes' is a long time gone in the MU. I think there are maybe only 5 actual heroes left.

616 has been destroy a few times has it not? and reconstructed, this is no different, the 616 will live on.

Well, there is Squirrel Girl, Ms. Marvel, and the O5 minus Jeen.

[MajorHoy]

Shouldn't that be: "Marvel Universe - Destroyed As a Sales Gimmick"?

[jackolover]

Shouldn't that be: "Marvel Universe - Destroyed As a Sales Gimmick"?

I forgot about that one.

Another one was that Marvel, like DC, are recreating their universe for the modern reader, so that is outside influences rather than story influences. But besides those two other considerations is there an in-story cause of the MU being destroyed?

[jackolover]

Doom caused this, not the Beyonders, not the 'heroes'. The experiment the Beyonders were doing wasn't even meant to occur for anther 12 years or so in Marvel time. And they might have changed their mind. Although the idea of 'heroes' is a long time gone in the MU. I think there are maybe only 5 actual heroes left.

616 has been destroy a few times has it not? and reconstructed, this is no different, the 616 will live on.

So the Illuminati didn't think to scan the area of the Latverian Incursion site to see if any material from the other Earth remained in the 616, so Dooms people found it and that's what started it? Doom getting the resonance from the material, getting Thinker to track the resonance, and then Doom bringing in the Molecule Man, which was the height of coincidence, on Dooms part, because who knew MM had such a huge influence on the outcome? Black Swan never told anybody she was killing Molecule Men.

So Doctor Doom is solely to blame here? There was no pride by the Illuminati in keeping the Incursions to themselves and not bringing in other people? And once the Incursions started, the Illuminati were not to blame for just saving such a small sample group of Mankind, instead of making a much bigger Raft?

Iron Man and Thor sent a whole monstrous space vessel out into space full of the richest people who didn't want to live here anymore. Stark and Thor could have reclaimed that ship and made it White Space Worthy and saved thousands if not millions. It's surprising Avengers World, including Thor, had looked into discovering who the Great Destroyer was, at the same time the Illuminati sent Dr Strange and Pym out to find the GD. Why hadn't the Illuminati and AW worked together on this? Pride and elitism?

[gwenFan]

Shouldn't that be: "Marvel Universe - Destroyed As a Sales Gimmick"?

No sales gimmick but storytelling.

[Radix]

To survive the collapse of all, you need to use the piece of the Living Tribunal that fell into each universe, thus the Life Raft can only hold so many and there is only 1.
And while Doom did start the incursions, without him the whole universe would be destroyed in 12 years. With what he has done, Battleworld survived and so did the chance to recreate the multiverse.

[TakoM]

Doom caused this, not the Beyonders, not the 'heroes'. The experiment the Beyonders were doing wasn't even meant to occur for anther 12 years or so in Marvel time. And they might have changed their mind. Although the idea of 'heroes' is a long time gone in the MU. I think there are maybe only 5 actual heroes left.

616 has been destroy a few times has it not? and reconstructed, this is no different, the 616 will live on.

Who to blame to the side. I really had some times with Hickman's story letting standing my hair up and going into a rage.
After all those stories from M-Day and civil war until now most of the heroes in the Marvel Comic Universum feel iconic like cheeseburgers. The 'heroes' feel cheap and more than often the stories too. I tried to compare to the past especially the mutants had stories which where either more complex or had more weight it a whole topic for itself but if take a look their situation has reverted to a point similar prior to the 90's where their sales weren't that much.

The reason the heroes feel so cheap hasn't necessary something to do with moral problems but a lot of stuff that eat away their status as heroes and their iconic aura.
1.) Heroes are only iconic when they fight enemies or danger that on the same level, we had really rare cases where Marvel heroes fight big enemies(okay at the end of SW we will).
2.) Those heroes vs heroes stuff let say it doesn't help
3.) Yeah we had some big morals no-noes let the heroes doing over the years.
4.) Like I tried to pointed out above, normally I don't want to give direct hints for authors or editors because complains or it is just useless but I make an exception. What I also see is that many stories are written as :
a.) Either as justification for previous stories (What If stories) or written in a way to make fun of the fans or enrage them on purpose. True that depending on your point of view but for a hand full I'm very confident that's the case.
b) The other problem is making heroes overpowered this isn't itself a problem but what follow most of the time is that the characters get killed off/retconed. The reason why the authors went for so much power is in most cases they have not much options left to write the heroes out of the situation.(e.g Tempus and MM) It kinda the same problem to write superhero stories for an past-omega being. I simple have the feel that there were definitely much more creative(superhero) stories than what we saw the last years. Hickman is maybe an exception from that but he goes the other way around to make the heroes into cheeseburgers .

About the future the way they wrote the stories I can only say I'm down to a hand full titles from Marvel and I don't see to change that in the near future neither see I change Marvel their course with the content of those new titles for the next 2 years. In a very hard way you can say: "The destruction of the heroes in Marvel Comic Universe will not stop with the destruction of the multiverse" on the other hand 80% of my manga pull-list became anime adoptions this year .. so who really cares.

[The Fury]

Well, there is Squirrel Girl, Ms. Marvel, and the O5 minus Jeen.

I don't count the O5 kids are characters at all. Squirrel Girl does exist and Ms Marvel is still new. Of the old guard, I'd include original Iceman... er...

... okay I'm out.

So the Illuminati didn't think to scan the area of the Latverian Incursion site to see if any material from the other Earth remained in the 616, so Dooms people found it and that's what started it? ... Why hadn't the Illuminati and AW worked together on this? Pride and elitism?

Incursions are Doom's fault because him investigating the Incursions went back in time and started them by having Molecule Man kill another Molecule Man. Regardless of what the 'heroes' didn't do.

[The Fury]

The reason the heroes feel so cheap hasn't necessary something to do with moral problems but a lot of stuff that eat away their status as heroes and their iconic aura.
1.) Heroes are only iconic when they fight enemies or danger that on the same level, we had really rare cases where Marvel heroes fight big enemies(okay at the end of SW we will). - It's now a yearly event.
2.) Those heroes vs heroes stuff let say it doesn't help - Also, pretty much a yearly event.
3.) Yeah we had some big morals no-noes let the heroes doing over the years. - See X-force, a book which turned a some good people into murderers.
... Hickman is maybe an exception from that but he goes the other way around to make the heroes into cheeseburgers . I don't think Hickman has been creative, Superman and New Universe? Unless that's not what you meant.

About the future the way they wrote the stories I can only say I'm down to a hand full titles from Marvel and I don't see to change that in the near future neither see I change Marvel their course with the content of those new titles for the next 2 years. In a very hard way you can say: "The destruction of the heroes in Marvel Comic Universe will not stop with the destruction of the multiverse" on the other hand 80% of my manga pull-list became anime adoptions this year .. so who really cares.

You mean like the Uncanny X-men being a bunch of mutant supremacy mongers and murderers? And to you latter bit, indeed. you enjoy those Anime.

[TakoM]

You mean like the Uncanny X-men being a bunch of mutant supremacy mongers and murderers? And to you latter bit, indeed. you enjoy those Anime.

I'm a bit mixed that the 7th time I wanted to answer you but either couldn't find the time or motivation but here it is:
To 1.) Sadly yeah in the past there were no problem when multiple titles fought their arch-enemy at the same time.
to 2.) This is what replaced the enemies of good with their evil master plan but in the end it became even duller than the typical hero vs villian stuff.
to 3) I think Hickman's thought pattern were hard to read I never expected him to be so negative I had underestimate him a couple of times his stories and character built up are kinda amazing but in the end he always screw you by destroying all other opportunities it gave and making the heroes into villains. I didn't got it so fast because I hadn't read his other stuff like Watchman. In poker you would say he showed his hand now.

To X-force let say when I started with comics X-Force had his own member who weren't part of the X-Men but allied with them. I think you are upset about the fact that many X-Men's became member of X-Force. I can only say yes I'm also upset but it is a bit difficult considering which you mean. Psylocke was a long time on the path to a dark killer but Marvel new politics made it possible for her to full evolve into it and it was not in X-Force where she became a killer. She killed a man wanted to rape her and her own (crazy) brother at least that was wiki says and then her former ex-lover in X-Force( who became evil). Storm had killed(she tried) Marrow since , she has a kinda crazy agenda since she became the boss or better when it was on editorial level became clear she will be the boss, repelling against Cyclops, joining X-Force and than declaring that Wolverine kept all the bad guys at bay by fearing them off, while the X-Men tries not to be feared an hated by everyone. About Elexier and Wolfsbane I don't know but Wolfsbane destiny wasn't that great in X-factor.

To what stay at last:
I mean in the 90's the human racist were kinda the idiots because from the story perspective the mutants were destined to be the next level of evolution. Wile they were hateful they were also like Don Quijote who fought again windmills because even if you kill hero X you can't change the bigger out come in the long run. The authors stripped that destiny away and left their believe in it which let the X-Men now looks like a bunch of idiots.

With Magneto and Apocalypse and Sinister there were other villain who spiced things up while Sinister ultimate goals and origin were unknown, where Apocalypse target known very well but besides his unknown origin it was also questionable if he is more than just a mutant. The combination of an unknown enemy and the goal of the survive of the fittest made him a terrible enemy.
Magneto was the counter pole to the humans and peace loving mutants he reminded the X-Men always that it just enough to be a mutant to be called better.

So where a back in a time where Magneto was an ally of the X-Men , no Mr.Sinster , no Apokalypse , no great destiny but a lot of of crap. They reverted to a the position before the X-Men became big.


About the bigger course which Marvel take I'm confident because I only how Marvel pinch Inhumans vs Mutants , Squadron Supreme, Illumnatis, New Avenger built up and so on.
Even when Marvel but a lot of characters under the caps they doing the same thing since CW/M-day times. In some way I would make a remake of same old iconic covers but with broken glass over it this is the way it feels for me and won't change in a very long time.