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  1. #31
    Junior Member DrTraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 616MarvelYear is LeapYear View Post
    ...this is the regular Marvel Universe's Doctor Doom and Doctor Strange. Glad to have confirmation that 616 Victor von Doom and 616 Stephen Strange are indeed alive.
    Looking forward to reading an article that sheds light on the subject of Susan, Franklin and Valeria Richards being the 616 ones or not.
    It would not make sense to me were it to be revealed that they are the 616 ones since, together with 616 Ben Grimm and 616 Johnny Storm, they were killed in Secret Wars # 1.
    My suspicion is that the others aren't the 616 versions per say, or at least don't recall the 616. I'm glad to see it is the 616 Strange and Doom. That's a good payoff for those that read Avengers and New Avengers.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anubhavkumarc View Post
    Why do I feel that Hickman is a Doom fanboy?
    And how exactly is that a bad thing? LOL...I'm a Doom fanatic...this is a Doom fans ultimate dream come true to have the definitive comic book villain achieve THE ultimate goal...besides even when Doom falls, it will still be grandiose that Doom rewrote the universe....

  3. #33
    Junior Member DrTraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    Haha, really? nice one. Hickman is useless compared. House of M build up and execution was 18 times better than this.
    I like Bendis but I do not get the love for House of M some folks have. I can not read that book without wanting to throw the issues at the wall at a few different points.

    The problem isn't the concept or build up. It pretty much follows right out of Disassembled and is set up perfectly as the second half of that story. Disassembled itself doesn't work without House of M. The problem is Bendis just completely misses the point with a lot of characters to the point he actual ruins the story. Cyclop's "Just ATTACK!" moment is just incredibly bad. His complete write off of Cap. Ugghhh.

    For the record, Hickman is the best thing to come out of Bendis's time at Marvel.

  4. #34
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    Haha, really? nice one. Hickman is useless compared. House of M build up and execution was 18 times better than this.
    Have to add my voice to the chorus. What build up? Wanda was perfectly fine for decades worth issues and suddenly she flips out by the mention of her children? Try that out on the Scarlet Witch appreciation thread so they can educate you on the build up, or more accurately the lack of it. Heck, I hadn't been keeping up that closely with the Avengers but I had to say WTF when I read it. I had the same reaction with Disassembled because I was reading part of the Busiek run and the the Geoff Johns one. Even some of Chuck Austen's.

  5. #35
    Nothing is safe TakoM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Have to add my voice to the chorus. What build up? Wanda was perfectly fine for decades worth issues and suddenly she flips out by the mention of her children? Try that out on the Scarlet Witch appreciation thread so they can educate you on the build up, or more accurately the lack of it. Heck, I hadn't been keeping up that closely with the Avengers but I had to say WTF when I read it. I had the same reaction with Disassembled because I was reading part of the Busiek run and the the Geoff Johns one. Even some of Chuck Austen's.
    Yeah another screw up character.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTraveler View Post
    My suspicion is that the others aren't the 616 versions per say, or at least don't recall the 616. I'm glad to see it is the 616 Strange and Doom. That's a good payoff for those that read Avengers and New Avengers.
    I know some people are saying that Strange is brainwashed, but I don't think so. I think Strange is working with Doom because he feels that he doesn't have any other options, and that Doom is the best of a bad situation.

    Also, am I the only one who thinks Strange looks like Littlefinger?

  7. #37
    Junior Member juggalord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    I know some people are saying that Strange is brainwashed, but I don't think so. I think Strange is working with Doom because he feels that he doesn't have any other options, and that Doom is the best of a bad situation.
    I don't see it. This may be 616 Strange, but he definitely seems to be caught up in whatever rewrite that led to God Doom. I sorta see Doom's reason for keeping Sue, Valeria, & Stephen around as his way of maintaining sanity throughout his "godhood." They all sort of represent his ties to the old world and what he valued. Stephen represents his mystic side. Valeria's his tech side. Sue's his honor and heart. I don't think that any of them know this, but maybe Doom does. Doom has had moments with cosmic power before and he's always managed to spiral out control. Maybe this time is different. He's keeping Battleworld together, but they're keeping HIM together.

    That's why the appearance of the Cabal is going to prove to be interesting. If this trio is maybe what's keeping Doom in check and Battleworld from unraveling, the Cabal is really going to test his fortitude. If Doom saved everybody and is now holding things together, what happens when the Cabal starts fighting for control and (maybe) a chance to rewrite things in their image. If any of that ends of being the case, it leads me to believe that the survivors of the 1st raft will end up being the architects of the New Marvel Universe.

    Another good question here is: How old is Battleworld? I know that it all seems like an overnight thing, but it's a clearly lived in world. It might not be as old as the Cabal's raft, this new world might be pretty darn old. With so many Thors, Doom may have been sitting at that throne for hundreds or even thousands of years. Maybe that trio of Valeria, Stephen, & Sue represents what's left of Doom's humanity.

  8. #38
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    To reassure those worrying that this is House of M there are clear and compulsive reasons to be optimistic. Firstly House of M didn't really go beyond it's initial premise. But recently Marvel have always sought ways to twist or subvert the premise of their events. (The key difference is back then events were editorial driven and now they are creator driven.)

    If you read this interview carefully you see many instances where there are still things unspoken. The interviewer is asking questions from the perspective of the many fans that think they have a handle on this already and the answers are all tempered by the writer knowing full well that something else is coming down the track that gives this story it's shape.

    Secondly, this story is rich with layered themes and ideas, where House of M was a single idea and a tangential end point. So in this we have the added layers of "Doom as Meesiah" / "God Emperor Doom" with all the benevolent dictatorship and extreme paternalism elements that this implies. We have the classic Sci-fi trope of feudal politics governing a system too complex to control centrally, such that multiple factions with conflicting agendas can clash at a personal level, with rules governing that interaction. We have the iron hand of dictatorship tempered by the love and admiration of the pure humanity he surrounds himself with.

    We have the 'chaos from the north' which is a trope that goes way back beyond Game of Thrones. GRRM got that from his often unspoken influence of Glorantha and before that Robert E. Howard. This is a mythic psychological concept that allows an external, annihilating, alien threat that needs to be guarded against, not just for its physical power but for its corrosive influence on the culture and ideas of those defending against it.

    And beyond these we have so much else going on. Books like the X-Men and Spider-Man and as diverse as Guardians 3000 and Magneto have been adding in layers to the idea of the incursions which suggest there is so much more to the grand plan that multiple writers have been influenced by.

    This is not House of M.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Coal Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    Because you don't need a confusing, world ending events involving everyone and their aunt to set the tone for a good story. These few things above (although point 3 is wrong) created the entire story.

    Wanda's mind cracks because of the changing reality she was creating, ending the Avengers (for about a week), she was then given to Xavier for him to try and help her recover (at the time I don't think the Avengers knew Magneto was alive as he or Xorneto had just attacked new york and 'died'). Xavier was losing his battle so went to the Avengers and X-men to help, they agreed, went to Genosha but it was too late... things happened. No More Mutants.

    Original Secret Wars, self contained in it's own series. Yet this Secret Wars, took 6 months in 2 books and many others before just to set the premise and even then it doesn't make sense.



    Exactly, if you read only Wolverine or Spider-man at the time, you didn't need to read 2 or 3 other series for a year before to understand it. You can read House of M in 1 TPB and understand what is going on, the plight and it's outcome.
    I guess we'd need to see the whole of Secret Wars in one TPB to make an accurate comparison, right? Starting a story in medias res with basically the end of the world happening is no harder to understand than "wanda is crazy now and has reality warping powers". How much backstory does either story really need?

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    Perhaps it's been a while since you've actually bothered to read Avengers Disassembled? Or you never have and are going off of synopses?

    The Avengers did indeed turn her over to Magneto at the end of Avengers Disassembled, and found out at that point that he was alive if they didn't know it previously.
    Fair enough, I take that bit back, it has been a while (man I'm old). Xavier was the one helping and that contacted the other heroes though. The rest of my point still stands. Simple setup to a good story, not convoluted.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTraveler View Post
    I like Bendis but I do not get the love for House of M some folks have. I can not read that book without wanting to throw the issues at the wall at a few different points.

    For the record, Hickman is the best thing to come out of Bendis' time at Marvel.
    I said it was good, not fantastic. House of M, with amazing art, still had issues, plot holes and such alike. I said the build up was good and I do indeed think the build up is good.

    And no, he really isn't.


    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    This is not House of M.
    No, it's not but due to this start (or issue 2) where it just reads like alternate universe where there appears to be characters who don't know it's a new universe/world, and then there are those who remember the world before, people are going to bring up comparisons to it. In Secret Wars, the remaining few heroes who existed knew everything from the start and were told to fight. It was a Secret because the rest of the world didn't know.

    I don't like Game of Thrones so these comparisons are making me laugh. Talk about jumping on the bandwagon. :P


    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    I guess we'd need to see the whole of Secret Wars in one TPB to make an accurate comparison, right? Starting a story in medias res with basically the end of the world happening is no harder to understand than "wanda is crazy now and has reality warping powers". How much backstory does either story really need?
    A point well made. Hold on, I'll go read it. Jim Shooter did some great writing.

    Back to the point, well one involves the slight mental state and reality changing abilities of someone using magic (a powerful mage once used magic to turn New York medievil, House of M was basically an extension of that idea), the other is the end of everything. I'd better how a story about the End of Everything has more set up than, mage casts magic.

  11. #41
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    No, it's not but due to this start (or issue 2) where it just reads like alternate universe where there appears to be characters who don't know it's a new universe/world, and then there are those who remember the world before, people are going to bring up comparisons to it. In Secret Wars, the remaining few heroes who existed knew everything from the start and were told to fight. It was a Secret because the rest of the world didn't know.P
    I started to try and post a few words on why this is philisophically different to Secret Wars and it ended up becoming almost 3000 words. So rather than spam this thread I have posted it on my underused Tumblr: The Gnostic Secret Wars.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I started to try and post a few words on why this is philisophically different to Secret Wars and it ended up becoming almost 3000 words. So rather than spam this thread I have posted it on my underused Tumblr: The Gnostic Secret Wars.
    Of course, there's a character even more suited than Doom (or the 'Demiurge' version of Wiccan) to cluing everybody in that the whole of reality is based on stories... the young Loki who has recently redefined himself as the God of Stories.

  13. #43
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TakoM View Post
    Seems similar to the discuss we had months ago.
    True Marvel/ DC and co let their characters stuck in a endless loop like a hamster wheel but like you said not everything is like that some miner comics and most of the manga aren't that way. The reason why Marvel and co doing this this way is to make the characters well known and protect their value $$ it is similar like tv-shows "The simpsons" and Pokemon are made. I personally switched to mangas which are based on norvels which have relative complex stories about trying breaking free from the default concept of good and evil(demons vs humans)

    The big problem I see is more what lies behind SW most of the classic heroes are hard to use again basically they archived to opposite of what they tried to do with the constantly resetting of the characters. I don't want to say which is a no no because I think every fan has it own bias about it and every character is a little different. For me there is a long list on the other hand without those strong characters like Cap(Steve Rogers), Reed Richards , Tony Stark, Narmor, Stephen Strange, Cyclops, Xavier, Jean Grey(the old) and so on Marvel would be a rainbow in grey colors. You can substitute one or another but without any of them it will be really hard to make comic which sale.
    So you're saying, when SW ends and Earth is full of amalgums of other universe characters, that will kill the Marvel product?

    Quote Originally Posted by TakoM View Post
    I think the similarity to games of thrones isn't random.

    First Games of Thrones has become the head panco for all those mediums which follow the dark, darker, at darkest trend Which Hickman also follow with New Avengers and now SW.

    Second those title follow another way than the classic in which the reader/watch identify himself with the main character, so they follow the series/season because they care what happened with them. Those like GoT follow more the dynamic of tension and primal instincts to hold the reader/watch like modern gladiator matches. You can care about the main character at first but for those stories it isn't necessary you stay with it. The interest in those stories snap when the tension is over which can either be the main character lose, or the last pure hearted side character die or became corrupted as well in this case nothing became worth rescuing.

    I case of Hickmans story he took the whole world as a hostage , now the hostage is released(dead for the moment) the tension is over Hickman power to bind reader to this is more or less over, so he tries to reboot this tension with with bringing even more GoT into the story.
    So Hickmans New Avengers was GoT? And Secret Wars continues the same tension with more GoT? That points to a very dark, and unsatisfying end to all this, because GoT just spoils all goodness, and celebrates all badness in everybody. I don't know how you could reconcile this sort of rendition in a Marvel Universe setting, when we are anticipating the good guys win. Are you suggesting the good guys would be too naive to continue promoting as a product?
    Last edited by jackolover; 05-16-2015 at 01:30 AM.

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggalord View Post
    I don't see it. This may be 616 Strange, but he definitely seems to be caught up in whatever rewrite that led to God Doom. I sorta see Doom's reason for keeping Sue, Valeria, & Stephen around as his way of maintaining sanity throughout his "godhood." They all sort of represent his ties to the old world and what he valued. Stephen represents his mystic side. Valeria's his tech side. Sue's his honor and heart. I don't think that any of them know this, but maybe Doom does. Doom has had moments with cosmic power before and he's always managed to spiral out control. Maybe this time is different. He's keeping Battleworld together, but they're keeping HIM together.

    That's why the appearance of the Cabal is going to prove to be interesting. If this trio is maybe what's keeping Doom in check and Battleworld from unraveling, the Cabal is really going to test his fortitude. If Doom saved everybody and is now holding things together, what happens when the Cabal starts fighting for control and (maybe) a chance to rewrite things in their image. If any of that ends of being the case, it leads me to believe that the survivors of the 1st raft will end up being the architects of the New Marvel Universe.

    Another good question here is: How old is Battleworld? I know that it all seems like an overnight thing, but it's a clearly lived in world. It might not be as old as the Cabal's raft, this new world might be pretty darn old. With so many Thors, Doom may have been sitting at that throne for hundreds or even thousands of years. Maybe that trio of Valeria, Stephen, & Sue represents what's left of Doom's humanity.
    It's possible Doom flicked a switch when the Beyonders attacked in NA#33, to transfer him back to Battleworld in an instant, thus avoiding combat. That way, Doom returns to the world he set up 13 years ago, and slips comfortably back into the seat of power. If that's what happened, I can see the settled, long-running Battleworld, that Doom languishes in, in its tedious boredom, now.

  15. #45
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    To reassure those worrying that this is House of M there are clear and compulsive reasons to be optimistic. Firstly House of M didn't really go beyond it's initial premise. But recently Marvel have always sought ways to twist or subvert the premise of their events. (The key difference is back then events were editorial driven and now they are creator driven.)

    If you read this interview carefully you see many instances where there are still things unspoken. The interviewer is asking questions from the perspective of the many fans that think they have a handle on this already and the answers are all tempered by the writer knowing full well that something else is coming down the track that gives this story it's shape.

    Secondly, this story is rich with layered themes and ideas, where House of M was a single idea and a tangential end point. So in this we have the added layers of "Doom as Meesiah" / "God Emperor Doom" with all the benevolent dictatorship and extreme paternalism elements that this implies. We have the classic Sci-fi trope of feudal politics governing a system too complex to control centrally, such that multiple factions with conflicting agendas can clash at a personal level, with rules governing that interaction. We have the iron hand of dictatorship tempered by the love and admiration of the pure humanity he surrounds himself with.

    We have the 'chaos from the north' which is a trope that goes way back beyond Game of Thrones. GRRM got that from his often unspoken influence of Glorantha and before that Robert E. Howard. This is a mythic psychological concept that allows an external, annihilating, alien threat that needs to be guarded against, not just for its physical power but for its corrosive influence on the culture and ideas of those defending against it.

    And beyond these we have so much else going on. Books like the X-Men and Spider-Man and as diverse as Guardians 3000 and Magneto have been adding in layers to the idea of the incursions which suggest there is so much more to the grand plan that multiple writers have been influenced by.

    This is not House of M.
    I think so too. I think Doom engineered in the uncertainties on purpose as good entertainment and to keep him on his toes. The overarching Beyonder threat will have to be reconciled at some point, and then the contradiction of the life rafts will also have to be factored in. I don't think Magneto factored in this much complexity into his House of M, but that he only saw as far as the Family in charge, but when everyone saw the king had no clothes, the spell was broken, and it returned to the way it was. With Doom, the spell being broken isn't necessarity bringing back the way it was, because the way it was, was two Earths crashing together.

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