Greg Pak says that Hercules is bi

[Kisinith]

Ehrm... old news? Pak had an ALTERNATE version of Herc being openly bisexual (with an alternate version of Wolverine) and hinted that regular Herc may be too. AFAIK EVERY OTHER STORY MARVEL PRODUCED WITH HERCULES had him being a phenomenal womanizer instead. So... old news? ONE AUTHOR take on a character?

That said: in the original myth there's nothing even remotely hinting that hercules could be bisexual, such theme is present in the Iliad about Achilles and Patroclus but the Hercules myth is alla bout a huge brute of a man, easily provoked into rage, killing stuff with a giant club. Also, note that the acceptance of homosexuality in ancient Greece is grossly overstimated nowadays(which city states are we talking about for example? Thebes? OK, even if only to an extent. Sparta? Not so much, and so on).

I hope I do not offend anyone but I don't think we need to change estabilished characters or myths just to appease a part of the comic reader community or, worse, show how "progressive" Marvel is. I'm completely fine with LGBT characters but try not to change existing ones too much please

You may want to reread some of those myths you speak of, Hercules was explicitly bisexual in them. In fact his affairs with women and men were one of his most defining characteristics. Look up his relationships with Iolaus, Hylas, Elacatas and Abderus. Hercules was a paragon of the Greek pederastic tradition that had older, experienced men taking a young male lover who they would also train as warriors.

[vitruvian]

Ehrm... old news? Pak had an ALTERNATE version of Herc being openly bisexual (with an alternate version of Wolverine) and hinted that regular Herc may be too. AFAIK EVERY OTHER STORY MARVEL PRODUCED WITH HERCULES had him being a phenomenal womanizer instead. So... old news? ONE AUTHOR take on a character?

That said: in the original myth there's nothing even remotely hinting that hercules could be bisexual, such theme is present in the Iliad about Achilles and Patroclus but the Hercules myth is alla bout a huge brute of a man, easily provoked into rage, killing stuff with a giant club. Also, note that the acceptance of homosexuality in ancient Greece is grossly overstimated nowadays(which city states are we talking about for example? Thebes? OK, even if only to an extent. Sparta? Not so much, and so on).

I hope I do not offend anyone but I don't think we need to change estabilished characters or myths just to appease a part of the comic reader community or, worse, show how "progressive" Marvel is. I'm completely fine with LGBT characters but try not to change existing ones too much please

The thing with Northstar was not with an 'ALTERNATE' Herc. Thanks for playing, please come again.

[Kieran_Frost]

Pak only wrote Herc for 3 years though. Big difference. It's nothing like Claremont's tenure on X-Men or with Storm.

In the last 10 years who has written Herc more than Pak and vanLente? Has anyone even come close???

[Kuwagaton]

My first thought on reading that issue was that Northstar had better things to do than listen to three ladies on stage going on about het sex. I thought it was another bad joke with "tee hee, Northstar's gay" as the punchline on first pass. Then I reread the scene, got the hint, and liked it even less. Carrying the BS wink-wink-nudge-nudge about Herc being bi right to the funeral and then having back-up stories about all the lovers mourning his loss without making one of them a guy was just a cheap attempt to garner backpats without actually doing anything worth congratulations.

More pertinent to the thread, authorial intent means zilch when the author doesn't doesn't own the characters s/he's writing about. Having someone flat out state their sexual preference may not be the most elegant storytelling, but it's pretty much the only way to know that 1) the corporate entity that does own the character has OK'd it and 2) the next writer to come along isn't going to miss the hint.

Good points. And the last part reminds me (just a little) of how Clooney's Batman was thought of to be gay by at least the actor, but how the story didn't support that at all.

When we consider corporate support, isn't it strange how the alt. Herc had a committed relationship with a man but the 616 Herc merely had vague references to getting around?

[Haquim]

The thing with Northstar was not with an 'ALTERNATE' Herc. Thanks for playing, please come again.

The "thing" with northstar is HINTED in the comics but is SUBJECT TO INTERPRETATION, it's not stated as a fact.

As for the original myth, consider it's really quite ancient, and the parts you talk about were inserted later on (Hylas for certain to name one), hell, the original myth may not even be entirely greek.

Also which myth are we talking about? Hercules as adopted by the romans? They weren't so keen on the subject (didn't resonate all that well, although then we should distinguish between time periods, but generally speaking there was quite a bit of conflict between those who sticked to traditional roman values and those who adopted greek customs). Which version of the myth are we talking about?

[AstroWolfboy]

Maybe He's Pansexual . Wouldn't hurt to have a few Pansexual characters.

[Kisinith]

As for the original myth, consider it's really quite ancient, and the parts you talk about were inserted later on (Hylas for certain to name one), hell, the original myth may not even be entirely greek.

Also which myth are we talking about? Hercules as adopted by the romans? They weren't so keen on the subject (didn't resonate all that well, although then we should distinguish between time periods, but generally speaking there was quite a bit of conflict between those who sticked to traditional roman values and those who adopted greek customs). Which version of the myth are we talking about?

I'm pretty much sticking strictly to the Greek tradition not the Roman addendum, though I usually use the more well known Roman version of his name. In the Greek he was the most popular hero and was used in many stories all throughout the greek world (the whole medeterranian) however the references to his male lovers are pretty much there from the very beginning. His two great male lovers were Iolas and Hylas

To that end I'll take the word of Plutarch (born 45 AD died 120 AD Greek historian and Roman Citizen): "And as to the [male] loves of Hercules, it is difficult to record them because of their number; but those who think that Iolaos was one of them do to this day worship and honor him, and make their loved ones swear fidelity at his tomb." And also, "It is a tradition likewise that Iolaos, who assisted Hercules in his labors and fought at his side, was beloved of him;

and Aristotle (born 385 BC died 322 BC) who observed that even in his time male lovers pledged their faith at Iolaos' tomb. "The Thebans thought so highly of Iolaos that they worshiped him together with Hercules, named their gymnasium after him, and in his honor held yearly contests, the Iolaeia."

You have the works of Theocritus (3rd century BC poet exact dates unknown). "We are not the first mortals to see beauty in what is beautiful. No, even Amphitryon's bronze-hearted son, who defeated the savage Nemean lion, loved a boy-charming Hylas, whose hair hung down in curls. And like a father with a dear son he taught him all the things which had made him a mighty man, and famous. And they were inseparable, being together both day and night. That way the boy might grow the way he wanted him to, and being by his side attain the true measure of a man."

Two of his most ancient and famous myths were the labors of Hercules, which is where he was associated with Iolas and Jason and the Argonauts, which is where he was associated with Hylas.

It should be noted that each of his male lovers was part of the Greek pederastic tradition which was viewed as a supplement (not replacement) to marriage and was explicitly tied to the mentor/mentee relationship. Homosexual relationships between equals and adults was generally frowned upon although frequently tolerated (also frequently mocked). The practice of pederasty has been historically dated back 4500 years, probably culturally assimilated by the Greeks from the Egyptians who practiced it but not anywhere near to the same extent as the Greeks. It was also typically associated with the upper class and nobility not necessarily everyone. The pederasty was explicitly a part of the Iliad (Achillies and Patroclese) which is pretty much unquestionably the most important cultural myth.

[Kieran_Frost]

The "thing" with northstar is HINTED in the comics but is SUBJECT TO INTERPRETATION, it's not stated as a fact.?

If you accept Axel, in a NON-comic setting (e.g. Interview) which is not comic canon; saying Herc is heterosexual; so too must you accept Greg Pak on Twitter confirming that scene he wrote was specifically to show Herc slept with Northstar and is bisexual. It's a two way street (iiiiiiiiiirony)

[juan678]

at by Magickmarker

[MyriVerse]

In the last 10 years who has written Herc more than Pak and vanLente? Has anyone even come close???

No one, obviously. That still doesn't make it anything like Claremont, who wrote Storm from her "birth" for the next 16 years. It barely even comes close to defining him, since Pak was really just writing Herc as he usually always was. Pak added almost nothing.

And you can really blame Pak for the lack of interest afterwards. He pretty much ran him into the ground for Cho.

[Kieran_Frost]

No one, obviously. That still doesn't make it anything like Claremont, who wrote Storm from her "birth" for the next 16 years. It barely even comes close to defining him, since Pak was really just writing Herc as he usually always was. Pak added almost nothing.

And you can really blame Pak for the lack of interest afterwards. He pretty much ran him into the ground for Cho.

You really don't think Incredible Hercules is defining for Herc in the last ten years? Really???