Ultimate End #1 SPOILERS

[stillanerd]

OK OK, so check out this explanation I found on Reddit.



That makes the most sense to me of any reading of this book so far -- because it would mean that we're thinking about this story, and the merged Manhattans, entirely wrong. This makes it much simpler -- 616/1610 isn't a post-Incursion continuation of a merged universe. It branches off from another point entirely. It would seem to offer a simple explanation for most (or all? What do we think?) of the things that are weird about this book.

The fact that none of us put this together speaks I think to how little emphasis most of the setup for this got in the books. This is like the other worlds that are alternate continuations of events or storylines, except that the portal wasn't really a storyline, just a device for other ones, so you wouldn't immediately recognize this as that.

Well, it's not quite a branching off from another point entirely, though. In All-New X-Men #31, where Ultimate Tony Stark and Amadeus Cho's dialogue about the rift is almost taken word-for-word in this issue, Tony makes mention of the events of Cataclysm, specifically about Galactus' arrival, the deaths of Captain America and Thor, and the destruction of New Jersey. However, in Tony and Cho's conversation in this issue, none of this is brought up at all. And, as we can see in the prologue for this issue, Ultimate Captain America is shown to be alive alongside the other Ultimate heroes. And, based on the preview art, we also know that Ultimate Thor is part of the Thor Corps. And again, there's no sign whatsoever of Miles Morales, even though he should be a member of the All-New Ultimates.

[wyokid]

Or we could all, you know, wait to see what happens next instead of jumping all over the guy after one issue.

[Songbird/Diamondback]

Or we could all, you know, wait to see what happens next instead of jumping all over the guy after one issue.

You're just setting yourself up for disappointment as we all know how Bendis story arcs end. Anti-climatically.

[Prof. Warren]

I felt a little confounded by this issue at first, trying to parse out how it fit in with continuity but a second read made it much clearer that what we're seeing is representatives of the 616 and 1610 universes on Battleworld that have merged. This isn't the Ultimate and 616 universes pre-incursion, it's after both universes have been destroyed and this is their domains on Battleworld. So, really, this isn't depicting the Last Days of the Ultimate U as many expected it to - the UU is already dead before this issue begins - but rather it's a mash-up of the 616 and the 1610. Putting that together made the issue a much better read for me but I do think that could've been communicated more clearly.

[Dicey]

Well, it's not quite a branching off from another point entirely, though. In All-New X-Men #31, where Ultimate Tony Stark and Amadeus Cho's dialogue about the rift is almost taken word-for-word in this issue, Tony makes mention of the events of Cataclysm, specifically about Galactus' arrival, the deaths of Captain America and Thor, and the destruction of New Jersey. However, in Tony and Cho's conversation in this issue, none of this is brought up at all. And, as we can see in the prologue for this issue, Ultimate Captain America is shown to be alive alongside the other Ultimate heroes. And, based on the preview art, we also know that Ultimate Thor is part of the Thor Corps. And again, there's no sign whatsoever of Miles Morales, even though he should be a member of the All-New Ultimates.

You're right. It's not *entirely* another point, just one in the recent past, and there's still some continuity questions. I guess, though, if Doom is making all of this up as he goes along, who is and isn't in the room can be attributed entirely to his whims, apparent resurrections included. The larger point that has relieved some of the cognitive dissonance that I felt initially is: this doesn't pick up where Secret Wars left off but is instead another of <strike>Doom's</strike>* the Marvel writers' room's contrivances. So what we think we already know about what happened in the prior continuity is really another matter entirely from what is happening here, rather than seeming in direct conflict.

*not sure there is BBCode for this on this forum, which is a shame, because strikethru is so good for snark

But yeah the fact that they aren't doing any last days stuff really at all for the UU makes me hopeful that eventually the whole thing gets re-apparated. But if this really is the end, I just wish everyone at Marvel was a little less 'over' the Ultimate Universe, at least enough to be able to summon the effort and interest to give it a proper, thoughtful send-off. Valar morghulis, I suppose. Speaking of which, I wonder just how 'game of thrones'y this Battleworld ish is going to get...

[Dicey]

this doesn't pick up where Secret Wars left off but is instead another of <strike>Doom's</strike>* the Marvel writers' room's contrivances.

I just realized, though, that this basically means this story doesn't have anything to do with the UU. It's just Doom's weird versions of the world and the characters. If the future flows from this point (very much an 'if'), then the future belongs to Doom, and so does the past. Can't decide if that is hilarious or kinda sad. But yeah if you have any complaints with what the writers kept and deleted from your favorite story, you can address them to Mr. Doctor Doom, 1 Fictional Construct Lane, Doomsgard.

[Codah]

OK OK, so check out this explanation I found on Reddit.



That makes the most sense to me of any reading of this book so far -- because it would mean that we're thinking about this story, and the merged Manhattans, entirely wrong. This makes it much simpler -- 616/1610 isn't a post-Incursion continuation of a merged universe. It branches off from another point entirely. It would seem to offer a simple explanation for most (or all? What do we think?) of the things that are weird about this book.

The fact that none of us put this together speaks I think to how little emphasis most of the setup for this got in the books. This is like the other worlds that are alternate continuations of events or storylines, except that the portal wasn't really a storyline, just a device for other ones, so you wouldn't immediately recognize this as that.

More people should read this. Spider-Men, Cataclysm and All New X-Men answer most questions in this thread.

Edit: For the record, I understood what was going on and actually liked this issue.

[Balfro]

I thought it was a nice touch how the 616 characters spoke in Capital letters and the ultimate characters spoke in lower case

Also, why does it say on the last page that Ultimate End #2 is on sale 5 days ago?!?

[Kurolegacy]

I thought it was a nice touch how the 616 characters spoke in Capital letters and the ultimate characters spoke in lower case

Also, why does it say on the last page that Ultimate End #2 is on sale 5 days ago?!?

Time is broken and it's extending to us now. Soon we too will be seeing a twin Earth in the sky.

[Dicey]

Or we could all, you know, wait to see what happens next instead of jumping all over the guy after one issue.

Point taken, honestly. I thought it was bad writing and it was actually that I hadn't paid enough attention to the setup. (I wouldn't blame Bendis for my not getting it -- I don't mind it taking some time to figure out, as long as there's a payoff. Let's see what happens.)

[jackolover]

Yeah what the hell is going on here? How many goddamn rips in space-time are we going to have to parse? And like, how is there spacetime anymore when there are no more dimensions to have rips between -- haven't they been telling us this for months? Why do these people remember the Ultimate Universe when people in the other realms don't seem to remember anything? Way too confusing.

Ultimate Nick Fury knows Doom is God of Battleworld already, so we shouldn't assume the Ultimates still remember the Ultimate Universe. All both teams remember is a tear, and now both teams appear to be in the same room. They still know Doom could get worried by that, so to me, Battleworld laws are in place, and we are just in the negotiation process of stabilising a mixed team Manhattan. The Stark we see from 616 May not be Superior Tony, because another Tony may have been swapped from another Universe. It's why 616 Spiderman is not shocked to see a Triskalion in the East River, as he swings in over the city. We can't think these people remember anything from before the Incursion. It just means the Incursion happened while Ultimate Tony and Cho had the Tear open, so it was a coincidence. But after the Incursion, Manhattan was transformed like every sector of Battleworld, only they appeared the most recent sector.

[jackolover]

I honestly think they remember because unlike the other Domains that are made up of one singular universe, the Manhattan zone is a mixture of two which has probably had some effect on Doom's changes.

As for the issue itself I thought it was ok for a first issue, I liked the All-new Ultimates still being around, Spiderman (even though he shouldn't be here) was fun, and I'm waiting to see what caused the opening spread. However, Bendis really needs to watch it with the continuity issues, there's only so much you can ignore.

I don't know why people are pointing to continuity issues. The whole of Battleworld ignores continuity, not just Bendis. Just because we don't know why Parker from 616 is in this and Pre-inversion Tony, doesn't mean anything. People who were dead are in this, so whatever the rules are of Battleworld, it ignores all continuity anyway.

[jackolover]

Doom seems to be the only one who doesn't have duplicates on Battleworld.

[jackolover]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who found this really confusing. Hopefully Secret Wars #3 will clear up the appearance of 616 Cyclops and 616 Spider-Man here.

I found this really disappointing (and I can't really put my finger on why, normally I like Bendis). With so many other books I want to try, I may drop this.

I didn't find it confusing. I didn't jump to the conclusion 616 Spiderman and Cyclops were the same ones from the Raft. I just thought this is Doom making stuff up in the Manhattan sector. When the 616 Raft shows up, then we will be able to lament how continuity is compromised. This? This is just expanding the mystery.

[jackolover]

I'm gonna like this. 3 weeks from now the Avengers and Ultimates are going to be at each other's throats for some reason, and Punisher is going to pop them off one by one, if he doesn't get webbed that is.