X-23 Appreciation Post: My skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory, to steel

[Geek Mangacomic]

So I was just thinking:

If Fox sells its media assets (including the X-Men) to Disney, there's a strong probability that Disney will reboot the X-Men outright rather than build from the Fox franchise. This has frustrated many of us in the thread, because it would likely kill the X-23 movie, and mean it will be YEARS (if ever) before we get her back in the films again.

But how funny would it be if Disney were to decide to skip using Logan, and jump right to Laura, instead, much like how they used the Scott Lang Ant-Man with Pym in the background as a retired mentor figure?

With all the people geeking out over seeing Wolverine in the iconic costume, it'd be an EPIC troll if DisMar were to use All-New Wolverine as the basis instead.

Yes, I’m sure that Marvel would rather make a movie about a less-fleshed out, less popular character rather than make a movie about one of their biggest cash cows.

[Beaubier]

Meh.
F**k Logan -- old or "young".

Bring me more Gambit, Daken and Hellion. I am all about the family you MAKE.

Sh*t, I'll take a cameo from Jubilee over Logan. Sorry y'all.

Nah. I agree. And personally I’ve long felt that the more recent portrayal of their father daughter relationship in the comics has been forced. Not against that being their dynamic but now it seems like the tie is stronger than it should be.

[Outside_85]

That’s one thing I could never understand about Logan - he was such a good father figure to his other protégés (I mean, aside from constantly placing them in mortal danger), but he was always so standoffish with Laura, who arguably needed his help the most.

Likely because it was super weird for him?
Like Laura isn't his daughter... she is him, only gender-swapped.
And every time he looks at her, something is going to say to him: "Remember the worst time of my life that messed me up for decades on end? They did that to her when she was 6, so she could be turned into me."

Plus it could be said that he recognized that probably the very last thing Laura needed in her life was more Logan.

[Dementia5]

probably the very last thing Laura needed in her life was more Logan.

Then aren’t we all Laura?

#deepthoughts

[Fokken]

Then aren’t we all Laura?

#deepthoughts

omg the more you effing KNOW!

[WebLurker]

That’s one thing I could never understand about Logan - he was such a good father figure to his other protégés (I mean, aside from constantly placing them in mortal danger), but he was always so standoffish with Laura, who arguably needed his help the most.

There seem to be a number of "in-universe" factors, as suggested by other posters (outright said in the comics or reader theories), from personal relationships not being Logan's strong suit, to him thinking it would be in Laura's best interests if he was more hands off (whether he was right or not about that can be debated). (Logan also seemed to really push her becoming independent, maybe in part of trying to get her past the tendency to take orders without question that the Facility taught her.)

Also, from a real-world perspective, writer Craig Kyle has gone on record in a podcast interview that Logan and Laura were not originally intended to be a father/daughter pair. That was something that evolved later in the game (in fact, in the interview, Kyle said that he was surprised when readers he spoke to thought that the characters were supposed to be a father and daughter, although he did come to take that view himself).

While that could be part of it.. it seemed to me that in the beginning Logan didn’t know what to do with her. He didn’t even know how to label the relationship, hence originally calling her his sister before admitting she was his clone. He definitely did not envision a father daughter relationship. And who can blame him really as it’s a bizarre situation to find oneself in.

Later in X-Force it became clear that Logan saw Laura on his level as a killer, I.e. when he yelled at her about Rahne and how she was better than both of them, and she was who they died for. This carried over into the Liu series when Gambit told Logan that Laura noticed how he treated Jubilee differently and it hurt her.

Logan had a lot of mixed feelings about his relationship to Laura for the majority of their time together.

Yeah, Logan was not a happy camper during X-Force and did loose his temper with her. Although I do recall that when she went missing (kidnapped by the Facility), he was extremely tunnel-visioned about finding her and not accepting failure on that point (to the extent that he outright threatening Cyclops and the telepaths operating Cerebro) and it seemed like something more personal than just a field leader trying to find a soldier they were responsible. I've kind of wondered if, even though it was true that Logan got along better with Jubilee, that Laura may have underestimated where she stood with him. Neither of them were especially good at communicating feelings and Laura herself suffered from a very low sense of self-worth most of her life, esp. during the time when both were alive.

[Moondoggie]

While that could be part of it.. it seemed to me that in the beginning Logan didn’t know what to do with her. He didn’t even know how to label the relationship, hence originally calling her his sister before admitting she was his clone. He definitely did not envision a father daughter relationship. And who can blame him really as it’s a bizarre situation to find oneself in.

Later in X-Force it became clear that Logan saw Laura on his level as a killer, I.e. when he yelled at her about Rahne and how she was better than both of them, and she was who they died for. This carried over into the Liu series when Gambit told Logan that Laura noticed how he treated Jubilee differently and it hurt her.

Logan had a lot of mixed feelings about his relationship to Laura for the majority of their time together.

The X Force stuff it seemed Logan had mixed feelings about it in general, he tried to talk her out of it but she's somebody who struggled to live without taking orders so she wouldn't back down. At that time he'd decided that she needed to work out those urges to kill herself and to let her be on the team as an equal, he didn't treat her like a child such as Jubilee because he felt it'd be best for her to find her own way. When he needed to guide her, he was tougher on Laura than anybody else because she's him and he sees her making those same mistakes. He yelled at her because he saw her as the old him, a cold blooded killer with no remorse or mercy. He tells her she can be better in his own way and that she can use her skills,mutant powers and will to help people. He also teaches her that she shouldn't always use violence. I think Logan understood the need for her to be independent even though she was craving a guiding hand, when he cut her from X Force after seeing the damage it did he told her it was time for her to make her own choices. She went her own way even if she had Gambit with her he never stepped in too much.

Later when Logan appeared in Paris he bought Jubilee who was coping with her own urges as a vampire. He did this because it was a lesson Laura could learn. While not interfering with Laura himself, Logan was helping her by introducing Jubilee and explaining what she's going through. They go for a walk and Laura cuts herself to see Jubilee deal with her urges, you know the famous neck licking scene everyone wanks over. She sees Jubilee hold back even though everything in herself is telling her to kill, she didn't do it. Logan kinda took the benign neglect approach to parenting much of the time. While he did do things to nudge Laura in the right direction, it was probably better for her to get out the mindset of doing what she's told without questioning it than to be coddled. She learned when to say "no" to something that goes against her own code of ethics and she learned how to decide right and wrong.

I think Laura couldn't have become who she is without that approach, Wolverine went from a killer to a leader capable of guiding and helping others. Wolverine is the guy people could count on to do absolutely whatever it takes to save his friends. Laura has proven she's become that kind of person too. She's not perfect but neither was Logan. I think when you look at her approach to Gabby it's become much the same, at first she didn't want to deal with her and then she became over protective, now she's letting Gabby choose for herself what she wants to do.

[Ambaryerno]

Mangold posted the Logan script for any who want to read it. There's some interesting details in here; the script itself emphasized Laura's intellect in a way that wasn't used in the film — there's a cut bit from her scene with Nate in his room where she does his math homework really quickly — and some notes which made Laura's fascination with Nate more explicit. There were also a few hints of her enhanced senses that weren't used (in the scene with Nate she audibly sniffs him at one point).

[Assgardian]

Mangold posted the Logan script for any who want to read it. There's some interesting details in here; the script itself emphasized Laura's intellect in a way that wasn't used in the film — there's a cut bit from her scene with Nate in his room where she does his math homework really quickly — and some notes which made Laura's fascination with Nate more explicit. There were also a few hints of her enhanced senses that weren't used (in the scene with Nate she audibly sniffs him at one point).

Oh, I can’t wait to read this!! Thank you so much for sharing!

[healed1337]

Mangold posted the Logan script for any who want to read it. There's some interesting details in here; the script itself emphasized Laura's intellect in a way that wasn't used in the film — there's a cut bit from her scene with Nate in his room where she does his math homework really quickly — and some notes which made Laura's fascination with Nate more explicit. There were also a few hints of her enhanced senses that weren't used (in the scene with Nate she audibly sniffs him at one point).

Not sure when I'll get to it, but it should be a great read.

Also, preview for All-New Wolverine 28 is up. https://www.cbr.com/all-new-wolverine-28/

[WebLurker]

Mangold posted the Logan script for any who want to read it. There's some interesting details in here; the script itself emphasized Laura's intellect in a way that wasn't used in the film — there's a cut bit from her scene with Nate in his room where she does his math homework really quickly — and some notes which made Laura's fascination with Nate more explicit. There were also a few hints of her enhanced senses that weren't used (in the scene with Nate she audibly sniffs him at one point).

Cool.

Edit: Got to love that the script opens with warning the reader that the fight scenes aren't going to be your average comic book movie battles.

[jhack53]

Not sure when I'll get to it, but it should be a great read.

Also, preview for All-New Wolverine 28 is up. https://www.cbr.com/all-new-wolverine-28/

ok Gabby and Megan is using deadpool level logic in regards to the muramasa blade. i have never ever thought about this until they brought it up.

[Rosebunse]

I love this script! It feels so personal, but also like the writers were very aware of how different it was and how convention breaking it was as a superhero movie. I really hope it gets at least an Oscar nomination!

As for Laura's relationship with Logan, I feel like it's going to be very weird for Logan when he comes back and suddenly everyone views Laura as his daughter more than just his clone. Like, it doesn't matter how he feels about it because to everyone else, she's his daughter and that's how they're going to refer to them, as a family. Even Daken views Laura, and Gabby to an extent, as his sister. How is Logan to reconcile his own feelings about that when everyone around him is telling him something he maybe didn't want to hear?

[Ambaryerno]

I love this script! It feels so personal, but also like the writers were very aware of how different it was and how convention breaking it was as a superhero movie. I really hope it gets at least an Oscar nomination!

As for Laura's relationship with Logan, I feel like it's going to be very weird for Logan when he comes back and suddenly everyone views Laura as his daughter more than just his clone. Like, it doesn't matter how he feels about it because to everyone else, she's his daughter and that's how they're going to refer to them, as a family. Even Daken views Laura, and Gabby to an extent, as his sister. How is Logan to reconcile his own feelings about that when everyone around him is telling him something he maybe didn't want to hear?

Keep in mind Logan legally adopted her, so she IS his daughter from that perspective.

[WebLurker]

I love this script! It feels so personal, but also like the writers were very aware of how different it was and how convention breaking it was as a superhero movie. I really hope it gets at least an Oscar nomination!

Sounds like the filmmakers were angling to get it considered, so we'll see.

As for Laura's relationship with Logan, I feel like it's going to be very weird for Logan when he comes back and suddenly everyone views Laura as his daughter more than just his clone. Like, it doesn't matter how he feels about it because to everyone else, she's his daughter and that's how they're going to refer to them, as a family. Even Daken views Laura, and Gabby to an extent, as his sister. How is Logan to reconcile his own feelings about that when everyone around him is telling him something he maybe didn't want to hear?

I think he already crossed that bridge, per X-23 (2010) #2:

Logan: "Been meaning to talk to you about something. Way I see it, you and I are family. Hell, we share practically the same DNA."
Laura: "I'm your clone."
Logan: "You're not just that. X, I'd like to adopt you. As my daughter. I won't be a good father, but I'll be your's. Your family."
Laura: "You already are."
Logan: "Good."

(Not sure what he'll make of Gabby, though, but that's something else.)