X-23 Appreciation Post: My skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory, to steel

[XCE]

Liu > Taylor.

I understand why people whose first contact with X-23 was All-New Wolverine liked the book so much, but as a long-time fan I think it's very overrated. It reads like fanfiction to me. His Laura doesn't feel like the real one, a re-occuring problem since Bendis' run.

I'm hopeful that dropping the Wolverine name and costume will signal a chance for Laura to develop her own legacy rather than being an extension of Logan's. I think it's a promising first step, at least. Hopefully Gabby will be gradually phased out as the next one.

[The Big G]

Yeah but the groundbreaking thing he did was kill off Kimura but after that he didn't try to keep Laura interesting.

I thought the Orphans of X was a good arc. Some nice character moments. Laura getting to bury her Mom and say good bye was a powerful moment IMO.

My big negative to Taylor's run is that he closed a lot of Laura's old stories ( Kimura, the Facility) but didn't really get the chance to open new ones. Kinda leaves her in a bit of a void. I get that. And what disappoints me is that OWL feels like a bit of a missed opertunity in which it could have set up a bunch of adventures for Laura going forward like Laura and Gabby battling Galactus, Laura ascension to becoming Queen of Madripoor, World War Doom ect ect.

But at the same time leaving it kinda open gives mariko room to tell her stories without having to be hand cuffed to a previous plot. Example this whole "Clone War" between the Cuckoos and Laura is something that im kinda pumped for. Its an idea i've mulled over back in the day.

But at the end of the day, for me personally despite her run having the higher highs and lower lows, both Liu and Taylor were about equal. KYOST is still King.

[The Dying Detective]

I thought the Orphans of X was a good arc. Some nice character moments. Laura getting to bury her Mom and say good bye was a powerful moment IMO.

My big negative to Taylor's run is that he closed a lot of Laura's old stories ( Kimura, the Facility) but didn't really get the chance to open new ones. Kinda leaves her in a bit of a void. I get that. And what disappoints me is that OWL feels like a bit of a missed opertunity in which it could have set up a bunch of adventures for Laura going forward like Laura and Gabby battling Galactus, Laura ascension to becoming Queen of Madripoor, World War Doom ect ect.

But at the same time leaving it kinda open gives mariko room to tell her stories without having to be hand cuffed to a previous plot. Example this whole "Clone War" between the Cuckoos and Laura is something that im kinda pumped for. Its an idea i've mulled over back in the day.

But at the end of the day, for me personally despite her run having the higher highs and lower lows, both Liu and Taylor were about equal. KYOST is still King.

I think the issue of Orphans of X boiled down to two problems one the art it failed to conveyed much tension and stakes. Two Gabby for constantly undercutting any existing tension in the story. You could say Taylor did write new stories but they were stories that just didn't really feel like they were suited for Laura's character. I can see where you are going with in regards to the Old Woman Laura thing but however given how Taylor continues to write Laura and even had her say Nazi stomping boots of all things I don't look forward to seeing him handle any such stories. Yeah we can all agree that Yost and Kyle did more good for Laura than any of the later writers ever did. Liu seemed promising but her run lost it's way after a while not to mention she did downplay Laura connection to her mother.

[RoamingGnome8]

I thought the Orphans of X was a good arc. Some nice character moments. Laura getting to bury her Mom and say good bye was a powerful moment IMO.

My big negative to Taylor's run is that he closed a lot of Laura's old stories ( Kimura, the Facility) but didn't really get the chance to open new ones. Kinda leaves her in a bit of a void. I get that. And what disappoints me is that OWL feels like a bit of a missed opertunity in which it could have set up a bunch of adventures for Laura going forward like Laura and Gabby battling Galactus, Laura ascension to becoming Queen of Madripoor, World War Doom ect ect.

But at the same time leaving it kinda open gives mariko room to tell her stories without having to be hand cuffed to a previous plot. Example this whole "Clone War" between the Cuckoos and Laura is something that im kinda pumped for. Its an idea i've mulled over back in the day.

But at the end of the day, for me personally despite her run having the higher highs and lower lows, both Liu and Taylor were about equal. KYOST is still King.

The problem I had with bringing back Sarah, is it felt more for shock value than anything else. I would have liked it if we had seen Laura having a last conversation with Sarah and getting closure. Instead Taylor pulled the focus to more Gabby and Daken. While I liked the scene with Megan, I felt cheated that we had to wait so long for this and didn't see them on-panel rebuild their friendship after 'Enemy of the State II'. I did really like the funeral scene in OoX but I wish there had been more like Laura having a heart felt conversation with Sarah, considering in was pulling from 'Innocence Lost'.

I guess with Taylor I just always feel like there's all this potential that he just misses out on.

Personally my go to writer is always Kyle and Yost. I think Laura was the most interesting when written by them and I think all other writers since then have been a mix of good and bad or just plain awful.

[The Big G]

It would be interesting to see KYOST tackle Laura at this stage in her life. Whether we agree with the directions or not, Laura's grown A TON since the end of X-Force.

[Beaubier]

Liu > Taylor.

I understand why people whose first contact with X-23 was All-New Wolverine liked the book so much, but as a long-time fan I think it's very overrated. It reads like fanfiction to me. His Laura doesn't feel like the real one, a re-occuring problem since Bendis' run.

I'm hopeful that dropping the Wolverine name and costume will signal a chance for Laura to develop her own legacy rather than being an extension of Logan's. I think it's a promising first step, at least. Hopefully Gabby will be gradually phased out as the next one.

Unfortunately Gabby isn’t going anywhere for a while. Of course she’s still attached to Laura’s hip in Red and Tamaki is keeping her around in the upcoming solo. While Gabby has her moments, I do feel like Taylor effectively making Laura a teen mom wasn’t the greatest idea especially as the execution was lacking. Gabby is a pretty one dimensional character that relies on a set of well worn tropes for her personality, and his Laura was incredibly bland. Now if Taylor was more interested in exploring emotional dynamics in ANW, it may have made for a good story. If Gabby struggled more to acclimate herself to living outside of a controlled environment, and Laura used her experience to help her and mentor her, that could’ve been great. Instead Laura was mostly a bland action girl and Gabby was her scrappy sidekick with a quip ready for any situation.

So as anyone could probably tell, I’m also in the camp of Liu> Taylor, although KYOST was leaps and bounds ahead of either of those two. Liu’s solo was a mixed bag, but I did appreciate how she delved into Laura’s emotions and psyche and what it was like for her to try to become a “real person”. Her Laura was both vulnerable and powerful, and took charge of coping with her trauma. Taylor’s Laura seemingly was done with all of that and seems for the most part perfectly well adjusted, which is boring and way too easy. The biggest crime was EOTS II, which dealt with both Kimura and the trigger scent way too easily, delivering an unsatisfying conclusion to two long running storylines. Taylor’s most satisfying story was Orphans of X, which picked up a thread established from the beginning of Laura’s history in a good way. Taylor at least seemed like he paid attention to Laura’s history when he researched her, even if he was never that great at capturing her personality. Liu sometimes wrote stories in which it seemed like she used half remembered stories from Laura’s past, I.e how she handled trigger scent and her continuity error of having Laura spare more than Henry Sutter.

To sum up the major flaws in both runs: Taylor’s was too many guest stars and not enough substance, and Liu’s run tossed out all the relationships Laura built up prior and was guided too much by her own personal preferences.

Mostly I’m relieved we’re getting another writer to handle Laura as I’m still unsatsified with Taylor’s version. But what I would give to have KYOST write a Laura (or Laura and the NXM) book.

[RoamingGnome8]

Unfortunately Gabby isn’t going anywhere for a while. Of course she’s still attached to Laura’s hip in Red and Tamaki is keeping her around in the upcoming solo. While Gabby has her moments, I do feel like Taylor effectively making Laura a teen mom wasn’t the greatest idea especially as the execution was lacking. Gabby is a pretty one dimensional character that relies on a set of well worn tropes for her personality, and his Laura was incredibly bland. Now if Taylor was more interested in exploring emotional dynamics in ANW, it may have made for a good story. If Gabby struggled more to acclimate herself to living outside of a controlled environment, and Laura used her experience to help her and mentor her, that could’ve been great. Instead Laura was mostly a bland action girl and Gabby was her scrappy sidekick with a quip ready for any situation.

So as anyone could probably tell, I’m also in the camp of Liu> Taylor, although KYOST was leaps and bounds ahead of either of those two. Liu’s solo was a mixed bag, but I did appreciate how she delved into Laura’s emotions and psyche and what it was like for her to try to become a “real person”. Her Laura was both vulnerable and powerful, and took charge of coping with her trauma. Taylor’s Laura seemingly was done with all of that and seems for the most part perfectly well adjusted, which is boring and way too easy. The biggest crime was EOTS II, which dealt with both Kimura and the trigger scent way too easily, delivering an unsatisfying conclusion to two long running storylines. Taylor’s most satisfying story was Orphans of X, which picked up a thread established from the beginning of Laura’s history in a good way. Taylor at least seemed like he paid attention to Laura’s history when he researched her, even if he was never that great at capturing her personality. Liu sometimes wrote stories in which it seemed like she used half remembered stories from Laura’s past, I.e how she handled trigger scent and her continuity error of having Laura spare more than Henry Sutter.

To sum up the major flaws in both runs: Taylor’s was too many guest stars and not enough substance, and Liu’s run tossed out all the relationships Laura built up prior and was guided too much by her own personal preferences.

Mostly I’m relieved we’re getting another writer to handle Laura as I’m still unsatsified with Taylor’s version. But what I would give to have KYOST write a Laura (or Laura and the NXM) book.

Taylor has also had some continuity flubs as well, like Henry Sutter looking Laura's age or older, when in 'Innocence Lost' he was born when Laura was at the least 7, at the most 11.

I don't necessarily think Gabby should be removed or placed in comic book limbo. I think all she needs is to be written more as a person. Taylor dropped some interesting hints with her, like her being evil in OML's universe or in the beginning having her be hurt by Bellona leaving, but he just never did a lot with it. Instead of simply making her the adorable sidekick who makes funny puns, give her an actual story. Have her deal with losing her sisters more. Have her have some trauma from growing up in Alchemax. I think you could even delve into her character putting on a cheerful facade because she doesn't always know how to cope with the past. Even if Taylor or Tamaki just wanted to do a 'first day of school at Xavier's', I think that would be more interesting than what we've seen.
I think the problem with her currently is there's too much focus on Gabby, but not enough character development to substain it.

[Beaubier]

Taylor has also had some continuity flubs as well, like Henry Sutter looking Laura's age or older, when in 'Innocence Lost' he was born when Laura was at the least 7, at the most 11.

I don't necessarily think Gabby should be removed or placed in comic book limbo. I think all she needs is to be written more as a person. Taylor dropped some interesting hints with her, like her being evil in OML's universe or in the beginning having her be hurt by Bellona leaving, but he just never did a lot with it. Instead of simply making her the adorable sidekick who makes funny puns, give her an actual story. Have her deal with losing her sisters more. Have her have some trauma from growing up in Alchemax. I think you could even delve into her character putting on a cheerful facade because she doesn't always know how to cope with the past. Even if Taylor or Tamaki just wanted to do a 'first day of school at Xavier's', I think that would be more interesting than what we've seen.
I think the problem with her currently is there's too much focus on Gabby, but not enough character development to substain it.

I can forgive the Henry age flub, because comic book aging is screwy anyway. In this situation, it just worked in the opposite direction in that characters are often made to be younger than they ought to be but Henry was older. I think that’s a less egregious “error” than the ones Liu made that I mentioned. Her story about trigger scent was a direct contradiction to what KYost established, and her story about the other kid Laura saved undermined the significance of the incident with Henry Sutter. Both stories, in a way, devalued what came before.

I agree that Gabby needs to be written as a complex person and not just as vapid comic relief. I don’t think she needs to disappear but I think her presence needs to be lessened. ANW felt like the focus was more on Gabby than Laura most of the time

[RoamingGnome8]

Liu > Taylor.

I understand why people whose first contact with X-23 was All-New Wolverine liked the book so much, but as a long-time fan I think it's very overrated. It reads like fanfiction to me. His Laura doesn't feel like the real one, a re-occuring problem since Bendis' run.

I'm hopeful that dropping the Wolverine name and costume will signal a chance for Laura to develop her own legacy rather than being an extension of Logan's. I think it's a promising first step, at least. Hopefully Gabby will be gradually phased out as the next one.

I think my biggest nitpick with Taylor's writing is, is it relies on you reading 'Innocence Lost', 'Target X', or Liu's X-23 solo series for you to really have any emotional reaction. I think if I jumped into ANW first I wouldn't have cared about Sarah Kinney death as much, for example. There was little emotional value to it, in OoX. I only cared because I had read 'Innocence Lost' first, and Kyle/Yost had gotten me emotionally invested in their relationship. Same thing with her friendship with Gambit; if I hadn't read Liu first, I wouldn't have picked up on it in Taylor's book they were really that close at all because Taylor never really bothers to show it much in the actual book.

In comparison, I read Liu's series before I had read 'NYX', but I felt like I didn't need to, to understand some of the subtext. Liu took the time to delve into Laura's history with child prostitution in the book, without depending on NYX. I'm not saying Liu's series is perfect, but I at least felt like The storylines could stand on it's own without prior reading.

I can forgive the Henry age flub, because comic book aging is screwy anyway. In this situation, it just worked in the opposite direction in that characters are often made to be younger than they ought to be but Henry was older. I think that’s a less egregious “error” than the ones Liu made that I mentioned. Her story about trigger scent was a direct contradiction to what KYost established, and her story about the other kid Laura saved undermined the significance of the incident with Henry Sutter. Both stories, in a way, devalued what came before.

I agree that Gabby needs to be written as a complex person and not just as vapid comic relief. I don’t think she needs to disappear but I think her presence needs to be lessened. ANW felt like the focus was more on Gabby than Laura most of the time

I agree about Gabby entirely, it has just started to feel like most of the focus is on her, and not Laura in ANW.

The Sutter issue irritated me because I just felt like it was easy enough to go back and check, and the minute OoX was announced I knew it was going to be Henry Sutter as the villain, even if it didn't make sense with continuity.
I think one of the biggest problems with Liu was it seemed like she purposely went against continuity if she didn't like what was there. I personally feel like this and connecting Laura more to Logan, started the trend of writers feeling like they could ignore continuity with Laura more and more- until we got to finally Bendis/Hopeless who dropped her previously established personality entirely and wrote her more or less as 'female Logan'.

[WebLurker]

And to top it all off Taylor hasn't done anything to replace Kimura I mean where's the fun and challenge of being a hero with no villain?

I can see the point to an extent, but I kinda think that Laura's main antagonist has been herself; the past she's trying to escape and the mental and emotional damage she's trying to heal.

As far as the comparisons between the three writing teams who've done solo X-23 stuff, I do like all of them overall. Kyle and Yost's origin story stuff are probably the best comics to the character's name so far (I did find their New X-Men/X-Force to be not quite in the same league).

Liu's X-23 was good, although I find that I remember the other series a lot more vividly for some reason. Did not like the Captain Universe stuff and I did think that the F4 material didn't work as well as it could've (I do like parts of the babysitting story and unlike other fans, I'm not bothered by her and Hellion falling out and even found it kinda interesting). I can kinda see the point that Liu wrote a more Spock-like Laura, however I also think that the series did show that she's not unfeeling, just that she wasn't expressing them, either on purpose or stemming from her struggles with herself. Granted, I did see an interview where Liu explained that her idea was that Laura was trying to suppress and turn off her emotions to avoid being hurt (and that she's fighting a loosing battle by denying this part of her humanity), so I maybe had a reason to be expecting it. I also had it lodged in my head that Laura was a cutter because for awhile it was one of the few ways she could feel anything, so the idea of her being somewhat low key might be more what I was expecting.

Taylor I can kinda see as being a "safe" writer and may not reach the same heights as his predecessors (although the only story from him I really didn't like that much on any level so far is "Immune"). However, I do like the idea he had of Laura essentially being able to reach a degree of normalcy and show her actually reaching the point that she'd been trying to for years. It was somewhat overdue.

As far as Gabby goes, I really like having her around and feel that she's ingrained herself into the X-23 mythos for good now. While Wolverines have always been more introverted, Laura seems to have a greater need for other people than Logan does and I think that having her be a older sister/guardian shows new sides to the character and is a reasonable way to advance the character (not to mention fits the idea of her being something of a foil to Logan by going the exact opposite). Also, Laura has been frequently paired up with other characters to balance out her more serious personality and quietness, so it's a case where we get that but with a better built-in reason for it being long term.

Mileage may vary, as always.

[Jumpyshark]

I can see the point to an extent, but I kinda think that Laura's main antagonist has been herself; the past she's trying to escape and the mental and emotional damage she's trying to heal.

As far as the comparisons between the three writing teams who've done solo X-23 stuff, I do like all of them overall. Kyle and Yost's origin story stuff are probably the best comics to the character's name so far (I did find their New X-Men/X-Force to be not quite in the same league).

Liu's X-23 was good, although I find that I remember the other series a lot more vividly for some reason. Did not like the Captain Universe stuff and I did think that the F4 material didn't work as well as it could've (I do like parts of the babysitting story and unlike other fans, I'm not bothered by her and Hellion falling out and even found it kinda interesting). I can kinda see the point that Liu wrote a more Spock-like Laura, however I also think that the series did show that she's not unfeeling, just that she wasn't expressing them, either on purpose or stemming from her struggles with herself. Granted, I did see an interview where Liu explained that her idea was that Laura was trying to suppress and turn off her emotions to avoid being hurt (and that she's fighting a loosing battle by denying this part of her humanity), so I maybe had a reason to be expecting it. I also had it lodged in my head that Laura was a cutter because for awhile it was one of the few ways she could feel anything, so the idea of her being somewhat low key might be more what I was expecting.

Taylor I can kinda see as being a "safe" writer and may not reach the same heights as his predecessors (although the only story from him I really didn't like that much on any level so far is "Immune"). However, I do like the idea he had of Laura essentially being able to reach a degree of normalcy and show her actually reaching the point that she'd been trying to for years. It was somewhat overdue.

As far as Gabby goes, I really like having her around and feel that she's ingrained herself into the X-23 mythos for good now. While Wolverines have always been more introverted, Laura seems to have a greater need for other people than Logan does and I think that having her be a older sister/guardian shows new sides to the character and is a reasonable way to advance the character (not to mention fits the idea of her being something of a foil to Logan by going the exact opposite). Also, Laura has been frequently paired up with other characters to balance out her more serious personality and quietness, so it's a case where we get that but with a better built-in reason for it being long term.

Mileage may vary, as always.

I'd need to re-read all of Laura's stuff to give my overall opinion as I've only ever read it all once, a lot of it several years ago, since I'm still reading new (to me) things rather than re-reading stuff, but I just want to add on to WebLurker's post my opinion that All-New Wolverine needs to be evaluated in a Wolverine context as well as an X-23 context, which I think explains some of Taylor's choices such as Gabby (c.f. Kitty/Jubilee) and his characterization for Laura. it will be fascinating to see what he does with her in Red, though he's pretty good for collaboration so I'm sure he'll reflect what Tamaki does and still find quality moments for her and Gabby, in a team context.

To each their own though, as WebLurker stated, and it's interesting seeing people's takes. The great thing is that we have several quality volumes, and hopefully another on the way. For a character that has to tread quite a fine line, Laura Kinney has had more good than bad, which is fortunate considering how bad she can be written, and Taylor, Liu, KYost have all showcased her versatility, contributing to her impressive longevity.

Now, if only event writers could use her well in an event for even more of a boost (or, it's a mercy that she hasn't been used considering how bad recent big events have been since Secret Wars). Hunt for Wolverine is pretty egregious in practically ignoring her (1 panel so far) though.

[The Dying Detective]

I can see the point to an extent, but I kinda think that Laura's main antagonist has been herself; the past she's trying to escape and the mental and emotional damage she's trying to heal.

But on that virtue it means once Kimura and Facility were gone there's nothing else you can do with Laura because once those are gone there's nothing else keeping her interesting and her book should have ended. And to give her a solo title is suicide.

[MarvelMaster616]

It would be interesting to see KYOST tackle Laura at this stage in her life. Whether we agree with the directions or not, Laura's grown A TON since the end of X-Force.

Agreed. I would love to see how Laura's creators would carry her forward. She really has evolved a lot since they first introduced her in X-men Evolution. She was very much a kid. She's since grown into a compelling young adult who still has a lot of growing up to do. According to Tom Taylor's recent run, she's still not old enough to drink so I think she's got plenty of youthful energy for them to work with.

Sadly, I think this is unlikely. Kyle and Yost have since moved onto other, non-comic roles at Marvel and I don't think they'll be coming back anytime soon.

[Thievery]

I can see the point to an extent, but I kinda think that Laura's main antagonist has been herself; the past she's trying to escape and the mental and emotional damage she's trying to heal.

As far as the comparisons between the three writing teams who've done solo X-23 stuff, I do like all of them overall. Kyle and Yost's origin story stuff are probably the best comics to the character's name so far (I did find their New X-Men/X-Force to be not quite in the same league).

Liu's X-23 was good, although I find that I remember the other series a lot more vividly for some reason. Did not like the Captain Universe stuff and I did think that the F4 material didn't work as well as it could've (I do like parts of the babysitting story and unlike other fans, I'm not bothered by her and Hellion falling out and even found it kinda interesting). I can kinda see the point that Liu wrote a more Spock-like Laura, however I also think that the series did show that she's not unfeeling, just that she wasn't expressing them, either on purpose or stemming from her struggles with herself. Granted, I did see an interview where Liu explained that her idea was that Laura was trying to suppress and turn off her emotions to avoid being hurt (and that she's fighting a loosing battle by denying this part of her humanity), so I maybe had a reason to be expecting it. I also had it lodged in my head that Laura was a cutter because for awhile it was one of the few ways she could feel anything, so the idea of her being somewhat low key might be more what I was expecting.

Taylor I can kinda see as being a "safe" writer and may not reach the same heights as his predecessors (although the only story from him I really didn't like that much on any level so far is "Immune"). However, I do like the idea he had of Laura essentially being able to reach a degree of normalcy and show her actually reaching the point that she'd been trying to for years. It was somewhat overdue.

As far as Gabby goes, I really like having her around and feel that she's ingrained herself into the X-23 mythos for good now. While Wolverines have always been more introverted, Laura seems to have a greater need for other people than Logan does and I think that having her be a older sister/guardian shows new sides to the character and is a reasonable way to advance the character (not to mention fits the idea of her being something of a foil to Logan by going the exact opposite). Also, Laura has been frequently paired up with other characters to balance out her more serious personality and quietness, so it's a case where we get that but with a better built-in reason for it being long term.

Mileage may vary, as always.

I agree with most of this, except for the idea that Taylor was a "safe" writer. It takes some courage to take Laura and try to advance her story and show a different side of her personality. I like it when writers take these chances.

I will also have to agree with those who think we had a little to many guest stars and a little to much of Gabby. And I say this as some one who likes Gabby.

Overall though, I thought Taylor did a really good job. The only story I can say that I really didn't care for was Hive.

But on that virtue it means once Kimura and Facility were gone there's nothing else you can do with Laura because once those are gone there's nothing else keeping her interesting and her book should have ended. And to give her a solo title is suicide.

If Kimura ends up being needed this much, Marvel can always bring her back to life. Until then Laura can face some new adversaries.

[The Dying Detective]

If Kimura ends up being needed this much, Marvel can always bring her back to life. Until then Laura can face some new adversaries.

Yeah but they don't care about her which means they won't do it.