X-23 Appreciation Post: My skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory, to steel

[The Dying Detective]

1) Liu liked the F4, she didn’t like the NXM. One group showed up, the other didn’t and when they did someone or other was getting character assassinated. And I think Laura would have been better served as a character if she had one arc in her solo where she got to bond more and strengthen the relationships that KYost had established for her. I mean does anyone even remember that she hung out with the F4 briefly? Imo both those stories sucked. I can’t complain too much about her friendships with Jubilee and Gambit as I did like those dynamics, but that was largely again a matter of Liu picking characters she liked and ignoring what KYost had built for Laura before.

2) Adventures In Babysitting. Coincidentally Liu was having personal problems when she wrote the story of Laura doing a 180 in her attitude toward Hellion and threw him under the bus. Either way something was going on behind the scenes because there was a complete disconnect from what came before.

Hmm you do raise some good points but Dust was being well written in contrast to Surge who has no right complain about Laura killing when she almost killed the Purifiers on that suicide mission. Butyeah she didn't use the New X-Men her friends and it would have allowed Laura to stand more on her own if she had a more original supporting cast. And Hellion oh that one will never allow her to live it down and she didn't want to admit to having issues during that time why we would have understood if she made a mistake. And thanks to we got all Laura has for a lover is that fiery turkey but not for long of course.

[RoamingGnome8]

1) Liu liked the F4, she didn’t like the NXM. One group showed up, the other didn’t and when they did someone or other was getting character assassinated. And I think Laura would have been better served as a character if she had one arc in her solo where she got to bond more and strengthen the relationships that KYost had established for her. I mean does anyone even remember that she hung out with the F4 briefly? Imo both those stories sucked. I can’t complain too much about her friendships with Jubilee and Gambit as I did like those dynamics, but that was largely again a matter of Liu picking characters she liked and ignoring what KYost had built for Laura before.

2) Adventures In Babysitting. Coincidentally Liu was having personal problems when she wrote the story of Laura doing a 180 in her attitude toward Hellion and threw him under the bus. Either way something was going on behind the scenes because there was a complete disconnect from what came before.

Beaubier is correct, Gambit is one of Liu's favorites- I believe he's popped up in her other X-Men stuff with Cecilia Reyes. She has also in some interview mentioned really liking the F4.

Besides being her favorites, I think she also chose Gambit and Jubilee because they were so connected to Logan during the 90's and the solo series focused on establishing more of a relationship between Laura and Logan than what it originally was in Kyle/Yost's work.

[The Big G]

the lack of a an ANW preview is odd...i guess it will come out tomorrow

[XCE]

And Hellion oh that one will never allow her to live it down and she didn't want to admit to having issues during that time why we would have understood if she made a mistake. And thanks to we got all Laura has for a lover is that fiery turkey but not for long of course.

Better Angel than Hellion, at least.

Also, please stop with the "Liu had personal issues that affected her writing" stuff. Yes, she once said she drew on personal experience in a sense when it came to "high school crushes" when writing Laura's journey of self-discovery and growing up, but all writers do that. It would be hard not to.

Here's what she replied to a question about the "break-up" (putting that in quotes since they were never actually together in the first place):

"As for Julian and Laura, yes, that struck a nerve with some readers. I was thinking only of Laura, though, and her journey — and from the point of view of a girl, woman, writer (and all of the above), that was not a relationship Laura needed at this point in her life. In fact, I think it would have been a setback to her characterization to involve her with Julian.

In real life, feelings change. When I was in high school, I had tremendous crushes on boys that I thought would never fade — but they did. Laura, for the past year, has been on a transformative journey — one that has opened a reflective window onto her sense of identity and individualism, and shown her what it means to love herself, and choose for herself, and be independent of all those cages (literal and figurative) that once surrounded her life.

That’s big. So big, I don’t think a teenage crush could survive. Laura is not the same person she was a year ago. Her feelings toward Julian have changed, simple as that. Nor is Laura the type to soften the blow, outright lie, or psychoanalyze why it all happened. What she said to him is hurtful, yes. Then again, it always hurts when someone you care about breaks up with you.

Yes, I always knew they wouldn’t end up together."

[Punisher007]

Two things:

1. I don't buy that her "journey" would lead her to that decision vis a via Hellion. Liu didn't set that up properly.

2. I doesn't justify how much garbage got thrown Hellion's way by other characters during that arc. Gambit was an A-hole to him as well for example.

Also Hellion had been physically maimed recently, and he was clearly emotionally messed up by it as well. I personally buy that Laura WOULD try and "soften the blow" under those circumstances. She's not completely clueless or callous after all.

Really I feel like Liu just missed the mark there completely.

[Izanami]

Better Angel than Hellion, at least.

Also, please stop with the "Liu had personal issues that affected her writing" stuff. Yes, she once said she drew on personal experience in a sense when it came to "high school crushes" when writing Laura's journey of self-discovery and growing up, but all writers do that. It would be hard not to.

Here's what she replied to a question about the "break-up" (putting that in quotes since they were never actually together in the first place):

"As for Julian and Laura, yes, that struck a nerve with some readers. I was thinking only of Laura, though, and her journey — and from the point of view of a girl, woman, writer (and all of the above), that was not a relationship Laura needed at this point in her life. In fact, I think it would have been a setback to her characterization to involve her with Julian.

In real life, feelings change. When I was in high school, I had tremendous crushes on boys that I thought would never fade — but they did. Laura, for the past year, has been on a transformative journey — one that has opened a reflective window onto her sense of identity and individualism, and shown her what it means to love herself, and choose for herself, and be independent of all those cages (literal and figurative) that once surrounded her life.

That’s big. So big, I don’t think a teenage crush could survive. Laura is not the same person she was a year ago. Her feelings toward Julian have changed, simple as that. Nor is Laura the type to soften the blow, outright lie, or psychoanalyze why it all happened. What she said to him is hurtful, yes. Then again, it always hurts when someone you care about breaks up with you.

Yes, I always knew they wouldn’t end up together."

One of the biggest reasons I never had a high school romance is exactly because of this. Sometimes when looking at this as an outsider I have seen countless teenage relationships blossom and die. Only a lucky few make it but the chances are slim. This is an important life lesson people need to learn and that change is essential to understanding and growth.

[The Dying Detective]

Better Angel than Hellion, at least.

Also, please stop with the "Liu had personal issues that affected her writing" stuff. Yes, she once said she drew on personal experience in a sense when it came to "high school crushes" when writing Laura's journey of self-discovery and growing up, but all writers do that. It would be hard not to.

Here's what she replied to a question about the "break-up" (putting that in quotes since they were never actually together in the first place):

"As for Julian and Laura, yes, that struck a nerve with some readers. I was thinking only of Laura, though, and her journey — and from the point of view of a girl, woman, writer (and all of the above), that was not a relationship Laura needed at this point in her life. In fact, I think it would have been a setback to her characterization to involve her with Julian.

In real life, feelings change. When I was in high school, I had tremendous crushes on boys that I thought would never fade — but they did. Laura, for the past year, has been on a transformative journey — one that has opened a reflective window onto her sense of identity and individualism, and shown her what it means to love herself, and choose for herself, and be independent of all those cages (literal and figurative) that once surrounded her life.

That’s big. So big, I don’t think a teenage crush could survive. Laura is not the same person she was a year ago. Her feelings toward Julian have changed, simple as that. Nor is Laura the type to soften the blow, outright lie, or psychoanalyze why it all happened. What she said to him is hurtful, yes. Then again, it always hurts when someone you care about breaks up with you.

Yes, I always knew they wouldn’t end up together."

That is very clumsy writing then because Laura came off as heartless and honestly the magic is in the journey and if the reader or viewer does not gets to see the journey then the story has failed in it's goal because I cannot buy into everything she said not when she didn't show Laura actually losing her interest in Julian off-panel is dangerous territory to use in comic book writing which is a visual medium and you have to rely more on the visuals than words to make the story work which means showing every aspect of the story even the process. And if I recall Big G said that Liu did admit to having personal problems during her writing of Laura's solo comic and I do wish he would give a source. There's always been more to Julian than meets the eye anyway he's not a bad fit for Laura. Besides to do that sort of thing to a broken person and not be there for him as a friend should then Laura has failed as one. Don't know why you think that fiery turkey is better than Julian the young Warren has done nil to earn Laura's affections nor did he have any interest in her leaving writers very little to even work with while Julian did if only by accident.

[Beaubier]

Two things:

1. I don't buy that her "journey" would lead her to that decision vis a via Hellion. Liu didn't set that up properly.

2. I doesn't justify how much garbage got thrown Hellion's way by other characters during that arc. Gambit was an A-hole to him as well for example.

Also Hellion had been physically maimed recently, and he was clearly emotionally messed up by it as well. I personally buy that Laura WOULD try and "soften the blow" under those circumstances. She's not completely clueless or callous after all.

Really I feel like Liu just missed the mark there completely.

Pretty much this. If that was the message she wanted to send, she blew it.

Anyway I’m not really interested in discussing Hellion vs Angel again in depth for the umpteenth time. It comes up periodically and the usual people have the same things to say. So I’ll leave it that, imo, all of Laura’s writers Post KYost have sucked at writing romantic storylines for her in one way or the other.

[Ambaryerno]

Two things:

1. I don't buy that her "journey" would lead her to that decision vis a via Hellion. Liu didn't set that up properly.

2. I doesn't justify how much garbage got thrown Hellion's way by other characters during that arc. Gambit was an A-hole to him as well for example.

Also Hellion had been physically maimed recently, and he was clearly emotionally messed up by it as well. I personally buy that Laura WOULD try and "soften the blow" under those circumstances. She's not completely clueless or callous after all.

Really I feel like Liu just missed the mark there completely.

Agreed on both counts.

1) We didn't get to see any journey or development. Julian was there in the first arc and they were as close as they were throughout KYost's run. Then he turns up in Babysitting and suddenly Laura doesn't want to talk to him. There WAS no development. Liu decided Laura "changed" and that was it.

2) Hellion was thrown under the bus, and he's just fortunate it didn't explode on him, too. Cyclops, (off-panel) Gambit, and Logan were TREMENDOUS hypocrites in how they handled him. He was a trauma victim who needed HELP, and instead they locked him up for doing exactly what they trained him to do, and what they all went out of their way to help Laura recover from (seriously. Laura kills hundreds of purifiers as part of X-Force, and it's "This poor kid is trapped in a cycle of killing, we can't keep using her as a weapon." Hellion kills ONE person on the verge of wiping out every mutant on Utopia — WHO IT TURNS OUT DIDN'T EVEN DIE — and it's, "OMG! HE'S THE NEXT MAGNETO!!!!"). One of the first things he did when seeing Laura was try to reach out to her over what happened with Karima, just wanting someone to actually LISTEN to him, but she didn't even give him that. She outright made it clear she came in to "see" him but not TALK to him. You can argue whether or not either of them were in a position for a relationship at the time (and that they weren't is something I can concede). However Laura was a just plain ROTTEN friend.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: The fact that Hellion remained Face through all of what the writers put him through shows his TRUE character.

Pretty much this. If that was the message she wanted to send, she blew it.

Anyway I’m not really interested in discussing Hellion vs Angel again in depth for the umpteenth time. It comes up periodically and the usual people have the same things to say. So I’ll leave it that, imo, all of Laura’s writers Post KYost have sucked at writing romantic storylines for her in one way or the other.

I'll sum it up in Cliffs Notes so we can move on:

Hellion is a genuinely good person who masks it behind his arrogance and bravado. Warren is a "nice guy" who's actually a selfish and self-absorbed dick at heart.

[Thievery]

I would agree with you that Taylor letting the character evolve and grow up in a genre where change like that is generally despised was a good thing. When I said "safe," I guess I was thinking in terms of some of the plots. Generally solid work, but I'm not sure they went beyond "good" to being "great," if that makes any sense. So far, of the series, I think that "Orphans of X," "Four Sisters," and the Squirrel Girl story are really the only ones that seem truly comparable to the best stories of the past (the Generations one-shot would count, too). The Civil War II tie-ins had their moments and Enemy of the State II's flaws in some rushed plot points and Kimura not having the same edge she did in the past really held that one back (although I do think that the idea and the lead characters really compensated for the flaws). The Spider-Gwen crossover was fun but not that deep (but I don't think that one was meant to be anything but just a fun little diversion). Agree with you that the virus/Brood story was not that good. Haven't read "Old Woman Laura" yet, so I can't comment on that.

Okay, I get you. I still think Taylor did a good job. Still don't like Hive. And I agree that Old Woman shouldn't be judged until the entire story is released.
About the only thing I didn't like about Taylor's run was the over use of guest stars as well as Gabby that others have mentioned.
I'm sure this wont be popular on this forum, but I like KYost, Liu, and Taylor all about the same. They all had their strengths, and I thought they all did a good job of writing Laura in terms of developing her personality depending on where her emotional state was at the time they were writing her.
About the only

[RoamingGnome8]

Two things:

1. I don't buy that her "journey" would lead her to that decision vis a via Hellion. Liu didn't set that up properly.

2. I doesn't justify how much garbage got thrown Hellion's way by other characters during that arc. Gambit was an A-hole to him as well for example.

Also Hellion had been physically maimed recently, and he was clearly emotionally messed up by it as well. I personally buy that Laura WOULD try and "soften the blow" under those circumstances. She's not completely clueless or callous after all.

Really I feel like Liu just missed the mark there completely.

This^ plus I think it's problematic because of Julian being disabled. In fiction/media a higher percentage of disabled characters are represented as villains than heroes; it's a trope that once again goes back to 'othering' or stigmatization.
Whether Liu meant for it or not, she coded the story in a way for Julian (A character with PTSD and a double amputee) to be viewed by readers as abusive. The scene with Gambit, for example was set up in a way that you as the reader were supposed to side with/route for Gambit, despite the fact that when you objectively look at it, it's an adult male teacher threatening to blow off the limbs of an already traumatized student instead of finding a way to de-escalate the situation.

[lucius121]

It seems that the main issue most have with Lui is her treatment of the semi relationship with Hellion, I was never a fan of the relationship, Hellion comes off as a jerk for most of the time and he didn’t treat Laura very well even before Lui. I’m hoping if Laura does get into a new relationship it isn’t going back to any of her former relationships.

[Beaubier]

It seems that the main issue most have with Lui is her treatment of the semi relationship with Hellion, I was never a fan of the relationship, Hellion comes off as a jerk for most of the time and he didn’t treat Laura very well even before Lui. I’m hoping if Laura does get into a new relationship it isn’t going back to any of her former relationships.

While I consider it an ugly blemish on the book, it is far from the only issue with it. Personally I think the Liu run is pretty overrated.

[RoamingGnome8]

It seems that the main issue most have with Lui is her treatment of the semi relationship with Hellion, I was never a fan of the relationship, Hellion comes off as a jerk for most of the time and he didn’t treat Laura very well even before Lui. I’m hoping if Laura does get into a new relationship it isn’t going back to any of her former relationships.

People have mentioned other issues as well
1) Her dropping/reworking canon. Her interpretation of the trigger scent made zero sense and didn't fit with Kyle/Yost's.
I believe she also stated when Laura went to the carnival with Logan it was her first time on a roller coaster, despite her going with Megan in 'Target X'. Also there being more survivors of Laura's assassinations, lessening the Henry Sutter moment.
2) The writing going downhill. Some people have mentioned disliking the 'Paris story arc' or the 'Fantastic4' arc, that those stories just weren't memorable/didn't feel like an X-book.
3) How Laura was represented. Some people do feel Liu represented Laura as less emotional or went overboard with the darker tone at times. While for the most part I liked Liu's writing of Laura, at times I felt like Liu played too much into the 'broken girl' trope that it felt a little manufactured; I think for characters like Laura you need a good balance of sadness without taking it too far.
4) Tying Laura more to Logan through her supporting cast and story arcs, when she had been more separated from Logan under Kyle and Yost.

So it's not just complaints against Hellion's representation in 'the Babysitters Arc', Surge's representation in the beginning, or the New X-Men characters not being utilized.

From what I've seen, most people are saying that while there was things they did like with Liu, there's also things they felt mixed on or didn't like in her writing.

[lucius121]

Just a point of clarification, I never said the only issue was Hellion, I said the main issue and that was deliberate. There are clearly other issues however the Hellion issue seems to be one people who dislike Lui's run are most passionate about and as I stated it's one that didn't bother me as the Hellion relationship seemed relatively toxic to me anyway.