Let's talk about Spyral!

[nepenthes]

sorry about that I meant to say whore..but don't know if u can say such words...

Just for future reference and everyone else's benefit...the overriding rule here is to at all times to remain civil and respectful, including in any matters of sexuality. Beyond that the boards can and will reflect the natural language of its users. So yeah...it's all about context, common sense and courtesy.

Carry on!

[Vanguard-01]

Batman was "allowing the cycle to continue" every time he let Talia kill, steal, use, abuse, and cheat however she pleased. And he always let her. He always let her walk away. He was always willing to shrug his shoulders and content himself with preventing her from murdering right in front of him. But, if she said, "Oh, I was going to murder this guy, but now that you're here and he's dead, I'll just steal his stuff..."

Same with Catwoman, who he continually stopped from stealing in front of him, but rarely prevented from breaking and entering, sometimes used her specifically for b&e, never worried about her history of assaults, her undoubtedly being wanted for criminal activity, or any of that. No, as long as she doesn't commit an egregious crime (that is, one he cares about) in front of him, well... she is a woman after all.

Batman, GL, Superman, Wonder Woman are all shortsighted in their ways. It's the nature of repeat villain stories and limited dynamics, and that's fine. But even "retaining" his "morals," Batman actually being left in charge with no one countering him, with no balances, is nuts and kinda terrifying.

Remember how Batman found Mr. Unknown? He tracked him down, violating his privacy on base levels, not because he did anything wrong, or was suspected of anything wrong, but because Batman wanted to.

Most of what Batman does is self-indulgent. Superheroing, by its nature, is self-indulgent. It's part of what makes it fun to read about.

Fine, that's Batman. Truth be told, I've never been a very big fan of Batman's methods, and I've never had any real belief that HE would be the hero to make the world a better place. I tend to put heroes into two categories: the ones who protect the innocent, and the ones who punish the guilty. Batman is decidedly the latter. He exists to make criminals afraid to break the law in Gotham. Useful, sure. But not likely to make things any better really.

This is why I have a problem with Dick Grayson being the one to join Spyral. Because Dick Grayson? Out of the entire Bat-Family, HE is the one most likely to be able to save Gotham and help build a better tomorrow. You're right: Batman is really too broken to do the job himself. If Gotham is to be saved by Dick Grayson, it's because Dick, unlike Bruce, didn't allow himself to be broken by the tragedies of his life. If Gotham DOES get saved for good by Bruce? It will only be because of the positive influences of Dick Grayson and the other members of the Bat Family. Without them, Bruce would be nothing but an angry guy in a fancy suit.

So, fine. If Spyral existed for no other purpose than to counterbalance BATMAN? I'd be okay with that. Because he NEEDS someone to counterbalance him. But Spyral doesn't just plot against Batman. This thread makes it clear that they'll go after Superman, Wonder Woman, the Lanterns......ANY hero who starts to make real headway.

I don't agree with you that Superman and the others are short-sighted. They are protecting the world while standing for a higher ideal and encouraging the world to strive to be better than it is. They have (so far) made no serious attempts to TELL anyone how to live their lives, other than things like Wonder Woman advocating gender equality. It is established within DC canon that Superman WILL eventually inspire the world to be better. By the Legion of Superheroes' time? There are MONUMENTS to him and the other heroes who helped build a better Earth. So we KNOW that the real heroes will, eventually, prevail and do these great things. It won't happen "in canon" due to the nature of repetitive storytelling, as you say.

But the simple truth remains that it can, and eventually WILL happen. And it will happen IN SPITE of groups like Spyral. You'll note that there is no "Spyral Museum" in the Legion's time?

[Sirnotappearinginthisthread]

Which just keeps the cycle going.

a conflict that can literally NEVER END.

Spyral

That's the whole Narrative point.

This is why I have a problem with Dick Grayson being the one to join Spyral. Because Dick Grayson? Out of the entire Bat-Family, HE is the one most likely to be able to save Gotham and help build a better tomorrow. You're right: Batman is really too broken to do the job himself. If Gotham is to be saved by Dick Grayson, it's because Dick, unlike Bruce, didn't allow himself to be broken by the tragedies of his life. If Gotham DOES get saved for good by Bruce? It will only be because of the positive influences of Dick Grayson...

Which would make him the perfect candidate to infiltrate Spyral. Send in the least likely to be corrupted by Spyral's philosophy.

[Iron Mike]

And they knocked down Batman Inc.

And they plot against superheroes who get "uppity."

Talia knocked down Batman Inc.

And they work around superheroes. I wouldn't say they plot against them. At all.

Are you confusing Spyral and Leviathan? Or even Spyral and what Dr. Dedalus did with it? Because there's nothing inherently anti-superheroes about them otherwise.

If anything they're continuity police. That's why I'm glad to see Helena Bertinelli join their ranks. It's the place for forgotten vigilantes to go. Which is why it makes thematic sense for Dick Grayson to join them if he's "dead" now. Nightwing no more, but like Kathy Kane before her, Spyral has a place for him.

I also don't think he's infiltrating them. He's using his real identity as far as we know. And if he betrayed them... I can't imagine that not leading to something bigger than Batman Inc vs Leviathan. It would be all out war between Batman and co. and the world's most secretive spy agency. They have their hands in all the honey, we know that.

[dropkickjake]

So we knoe this for a fact about Spyral from the issue:

spoilers:

Batman says that they are trying to learn heroes secret identities. We don't know for what purpose. I have to say, Batman has no room to be upset about anyone finding weaknesses of heroes. Bruce's were power specific, it may be that Spyral is looking for personal weaknesses? Either way, Batman also clearly states that Spyral fights bad guys. So theres that.

end of spoilers

[Vanguard-01]

Talia knocked down Batman Inc.

And they work around superheroes. I wouldn't say they plot against them. At all.

Are you confusing Spyral and Leviathan? Or even Spyral and what Dr. Dedalus did with it? Because there's nothing inherently anti-superheroes about them otherwise.

If anything they're continuity police. That's why I'm glad to see Helena Bertinelli join their ranks. It's the place for forgotten vigilantes to go. Which is why it makes thematic sense for Dick Grayson to join them if he's "dead" now. Nightwing no more, but like Kathy Kane before her, Spyral has a place for him.

I also don't think he's infiltrating them. He's using his real identity as far as we know. And if he betrayed them... I can't imagine that not leading to something bigger than Batman Inc vs Leviathan. It would be all out war between Batman and co. and the world's most secretive spy agency. They have their hands in all the honey, we know that.

You haven't read Nightwing #30 yet, have you?

[king of hybrids]

So we knoe this for a fact about Spyral from the issue:

spoilers:

Batman says that they are trying to learn heroes secret identities. We don't know for what purpose. I have to say, Batman has no room to be upset about anyone finding weaknesses of heroes. Bruce's were power specific, it may be that Spyral is looking for personal weaknesses? Either way, Batman also clearly states that Spyral fights bad guys. So theres that.

end of spoilers

after spoilers:

the rather epic dropping of balls by the superheroes in trinity war/forever evil, plus whatever happens to make them so reviled after the earth war; it makes sense that agencies would want to have the means to shut individual heroes down; and blackmail is a hell of a lot more efficient that what falcone's pulling

end of spoilers

[Iron Mike]

You haven't read Nightwing #30 yet, have you?

I hadn't. lol My bad.

I don't know how I feel about this.