Let's talk about Spyral!

[Bruce Wayne]

That isn't really fair. He was packing heat and thus had an advantage over most of the others who were unarmed fighters.

[ReverseReverseFlash]

He didn't fail at anything, people voted for him to die and he did. Simple as that, theres no test or anything. If you are trying to say that Jason's skills aren't good enough then your wrong. Jason could be one of the best fighters of all Robin in new52 and he was second to Dick pre52.

I'm not wrong.

Jason was not popular with readers, even though DC pushed him really hard and even kept him in continuity through the first Crisis.

As a character, he was constantly going too far and ignoring his training. He was a bad Robin. It isn't about whether you like Jason or not. I don't care. I'm speaking about the character's history. I hope you realize he isn't a real person, so the phonecall thing really doesn't matter.

Jason can't follow orders. Agents have to follow orders. Dick knows how to stick to the plan and get things done. Jason doesn't. Jason flies off on mood swings and tries to kill his own friends sometimes.

[Neowing]

I'm not wrong.

Jason was not popular with readers, even though DC pushed him really hard and even kept him in continuity through the first Crisis.

As a character, he was constantly going too far and ignoring his training. He was a bad Robin. It isn't about whether you like Jason or not. I don't care. I'm speaking about the character's history. I hope you realize he isn't a real person, so the phonecall thing really doesn't matter.

Jason can't follow orders. Agents have to follow orders. Dick knows how to stick to the plan and get things done. Jason doesn't. Jason flies off on mood swings and tries to kill his own friends sometimes.

Caugh Damian the most popular Robin whos just like Jason caugh.

Jason might have been a bad Robin but he has outgrown that role a long time so it doesn't really matter. Not to mention he never got the chance to grow, to actually learn to follow Bruce and so on like Damian but sadly DC killed him.

As for Jason being a spy, he would make a great spy because unlike Dick or Bruce, Jason isn't scared of getting things actually done. He doesn't follow the code of no gun and killing.

Sure Jason has anger issues but he ain't perfect just like Dick and Bruce who got plenty of faults to. Dick especially isn't fit for the shady work that spies does, he would never take a life and it goes against his character to do so.

[ReverseReverseFlash]

Look, I like Jason. I was a big fan of the Red Hood before the New 52 version messed with him.

Jason was already an agent of Spyral. That was the point of the Wingman persona. They actually captured Jason and brought him into their group. He was the wildcard that saved everyone in Batman Incorporated at the end. They've already used him.

But agencies cannot fully employ loose cannons. Jason is unpredictable. Jason is also black and white when it comes to crime and Spyral does their share of criminal acts. Jason is pawn material, Dick is agent material.

[Vanguard-01]

So, basically, they're a bunch of assholes who actively attempt to thwart superheroes from making real headway in the fight to make the world a better, safer place. Batman was getting too good at his job, so they knocked him down. If the Justice League starts to make real progress in bettering the world, they can expect interference from Spyral. They don't WANT to see the world become a better place. They just try to enforce the status quo. They are agents of stagnation who want to keep the DCU in the wretched state it's already in, and they will actively oppose anyone who looks like he/she can really make a difference.

Yep! Sounds like villains to me!

So screw them and anyone who associates with them.

[ReverseReverseFlash]

That's a very native way of looking at things.

The Justice League doesn't exist to change the world, just protect it. They aren't cosmic dictators.

We've already seen what happens when Batman makes the world his own personal court room for crime. He ends up like in Kingdom Come.

[Neowing]

Look, I like Jason. I was a big fan of the Red Hood before the New 52 version messed with him.

Jason was already an agent of Spyral. That was the point of the Wingman persona. They actually captured Jason and brought him into their group. He was the wildcard that saved everyone in Batman Incorporated at the end. They've already used him.

But agencies cannot fully employ loose cannons. Jason is unpredictable. Jason is also black and white when it comes to crime and Spyral does their share of criminal acts. Jason is pawn material, Dick is agent material.

I haven't read Batman Inc so meh.

Dick is absolutely not agent material, the guy is against using a gun and he doesn't take a life. Agents take orders and complete them like dogs, Dick won't do that, especially if It's about killing. He is the one who makes the orders.

[ReverseReverseFlash]

I haven't read Batman Inc so meh.

Dick is absolutely not agent material, the guy is against using a gun and he doesn't take a life. Agents take orders and complete them like dogs, Dick won't do that, especially if It's about killing. He is the one who makes the orders.

You best read up on Batman INC if you want to follow this. That's where this is all coming from. Personally, it doesn't matter to me either way. It's just better to make a judgement on more information, rather less, don't you think? Else you're just making opinionated guesses against people who have opinions rooted in more information than you.

Dick has never said anything about using guns. That's just one of the rules of working closely with Batman. "We don't use guns".

How many people have to point out that Dick was a police officer? He's used a gun. It doesn't matter to him. As a vigilante, you don't have the right to kill people with a gun.

As a cop or an agent of the United Nations through Spyral, he does have a duty to use a gun. It's not that simple. Dick's parents weren't the ones shot dead in an alley. Dick is not a Bruce Wayne-lite. He's his own person.

[Vanguard-01]

That's a very native way of looking at things.

The Justice League doesn't exist to change the world, just protect it. They aren't cosmic dictators.

We've already seen what happens when Batman makes the world his own personal court room for crime. He ends up like in Kingdom Come.

Your entire first post says that they're a villain organization and that they exist to prevent heroes from doing too good a job. If any hero starts to make progress in bettering the world? Watch out, hero. Here comes the Stagnation Squad.

The League exists to stop the bad guys. If they figure out a way to stop them FOR GOOD? That's making the world a better place......and according to you, Spyral will step in and try to stop them from achieving this goal anyway. Because, you know, a world with no more Jokers, Lex Luthors, and/or First Borns would be SUCH a bad thing.

[Neowing]

You best read up on Batman INC if you want to follow this. That's where this is all coming from. Personally, it doesn't matter to me either way. It's just better to make a judgement on more information, rather less, don't you think? Else you're just making opinionated guesses against people who have opinions rooted in more information than you.

Dick has never said anything about using guns. That's just one of the rules of working closely with Batman. "We don't use guns".

How many people have to point out that Dick was a police officer? He's used a gun. It doesn't matter to him. As a vigilante, you don't have the right to kill people with a gun.

As a cop or an agent of the United Nations through Spyral, he does have a duty to use a gun. It's not that simple. Dick's parents weren't the ones shot dead in an alley. Dick is not a Bruce Wayne-lite. He's his own person.

Oh that cop argument.

It would be valid if he actually used the gun and shot someone but he hasn't done that. You say that It's one of the rules to work with Batman but what about when he led the Titans? JLA? When Dick took up the mantle Nightwing to become his own man? This is the guy who became Batman for god's sake.

Dick is against guns because he doesn't believe in taking a life and theres nothing more to it. Like father, like son.

[king of hybrids]

Your entire first post says that they're a villain organization and that they exist to prevent heroes from doing too good a job. If any hero starts to make progress in bettering the world? Watch out, hero. Here comes the Stagnation Squad.

The League exists to stop the bad guys. If they figure out a way to stop them FOR GOOD? That's making the world a better place......and according to you, Spyral will step in and try to stop them from achieving this goal anyway. Because, you know, a world with no more Jokers, Lex Luthors, and/or First Borns would be SUCH a bad thing.

until we end up with the justice lords, the regime, or the authority.

edit: despite their apparent contempt for superheroes; what the hell is their plan to deal with darkseid, zod, doomsday, daemonites etc

[Vanguard-01]

until we end up with the justice lords, the regime, or the authority.

And that's a guaranteed-absolutely-going-to-happen thing? No. Those stories happened because a bunch of writers wanted to tell THAT story of heroes going bad. That is NOT the only possible outcome that results from superheroes actually WINNING against their foes.

The only other way of looking at it is saying that Spyral is completely right and that the world can never, and SHOULD never get better and all the heroes are not solving anything. Basically, you're saying that the heroes are part of the problem. Not the solution.

I'll pass, thanks. I'll put my faith in Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman as the people who can actually save the world LONG before I'll ever believe that a bunch of murdering douchebags are the real heroes.

[king of hybrids]

its not that the world should never get better; its that it should be done by ordinary people; not a bunch of bright-dressed loose cannons with death wishes with wierd morals.

and as far as DC is concerned; pro-active superheroes is always bad; or have we forgotten that they still have twilight of the superheroes in their backpocket?

this does give a legitimate reason to batman freaking out at superman/wonder woman's date in khandq. spyral can and wil ldestroy the justice league if they make too many waves

[Vanguard-01]

its not that the world should never get better; its that it should be done by ordinary people; not a bunch of bright-dressed loose cannons with death wishes with wierd morals.

"Weird morals?" As in "Defend the weak and stop the monsters that prey on them?" Yeah, real weird that.

And if the heroes will have exactly no impact on bettering the world, then I guess they should all just retire now and save themselves a lot of trouble.

and as far as DC is concerned; pro-active superheroes is always bad; or have we forgotten that they still have twilight of the superheroes in their backpocket?

Who said anything about pro-active superheroes? I'm talking like if the League develops a prison that can actually HOLD the bad guys or if they figure out a way to leave Lex Luthor penniless. Stuff like that.

From the sound of things, here, Spyral would oppose the League even on these areas. Anything that disturbs their precious balance of power between the heroes and the villains must be thwarted. So if the heroes start figuring out how to actually WIN? Then here comes Spyral.

this does give a legitimate reason to batman freaking out at superman/wonder woman's date in khandq. spyral can and wil ldestroy the justice league if they make too many waves

Yes, because it was such an awful thing for Superman and Wonder Woman to stand up and let the people of Khandaq know that SOMEBODY cared about them, even while the rest of the world (including the ever-righteous Spyral) were perfectly content to just sit back and watch innocent people die for nothing that even vaguely resembles a good reason.

A bunch of douchebags with guns are going to destroy the League? LOL! I'd love to see them try!

No, seriously. I would LOVE to see that slaughter.

[oasis1313]

I'd love to see Grifter join Spyral.