Sam Wilson should be called Captain Falcon

[JudicatorPrime]

Anthony Mackie made an impressive showing in Captain America: The Winter Soldier, but a dude who talks to birds and flies using technology he didn't create is never going to be capable of spearing his own solo series under that mantle.

I can't speak for most Falcon fans, but he doesn't have to have his own monthly title to be a success. There is a way to reimagine him so that he shines and continues to grow his fanbase. The Winter Soldier Sam tapped into something. Marvel writers have to take that and run with it, not bury the character in another man's mantle repeatedly.

[skyvolt2000]

The one nephew that Sam did have, who would have been old enough to assume the role of Falcon, they rewrote as gay, gave him AIDS, and killed him off. Marvel won't admit it, but they really hate the Wilson family.

Remember we do have that OTHER universe roaming around. Whose to say Falcon's nephew isn't around in the Ultimate Universe? Whose to say Judge from Miles's book is not Jim Wilson since he has yet to state his full name. I still think that he's Falcon's nephew.

Seriously, those geniuses at Marvel are totally ruining Sam by not allowing him to expand his popularity and/or powerbase as The Falcon. It's sad, really.

I think the million dollar issue is who would sell the books?

You are a comic book store and you had to order say 20 books between these two titles-

Falcon
Captain America

Storm
Falcon

Falcon
She Hulk

Falcon
Luke Cage

Falcon
Jessica Jones

Falcon
Agent Carter

Falcon would probably lose out on all but one of those (MAYBE Storm). 4 have movies/tv shows in their future. She Hulk has had what 4 series already?

You can even make that same case with trades. Him as Captain America assures you of folks seeing him in action and books getting ordered. At least here you can let him be CA and then spinoff that into a series like we saw with Bucky, War Machine, Black Goliath, Ms Marvel (sort of), Nightwing and others. Because now you have something that says yes we did a solo run with this guy and it did well.

[JudicatorPrime]

Remember we do have that OTHER universe roaming around. Whose to say Falcon's nephew isn't around in the Ultimate Universe? Whose to say Judge from Miles's book is not Jim Wilson since he has yet to state his full name. I still think that he's Falcon's nephew.

The appeal of Secret Wars is that I hoped that we'd see alternate Earth versions of many of my favorite Marvel characters. So far Sam is Thor. Not sure if Jim will make an appearance. Not sure if we'll see an alternate reality Falcon, but that would be nice.

[skyvolt2000]

I can't speak for most Falcon fans, but he doesn't have to have his own monthly title to be a success. There is a way to reimagine him so that he shines and continues to grow his fanbase. The Winter Soldier Sam tapped into something. Marvel writers have to take that and run with it, not bury the character in another man's mantle repeatedly.

Winning Falcon fans or those who loved him in the movie is NOT the issue-it's the folks in charge that have to be convinced. We have seen this before so many times where a minority gets some attention or gets popular and EVERYONE is scared to take that next step. Instead we saw excuses galore.

Static Shock anyone? Ratings higher than Dora, Rugrats, Sponge Bob, WWE and so many others shows even in reruns. Yet no merchandise. Yet we can name a ton of failed and low rated shows that got stuff?

13 years since Static Shock and no POC had had a solo cartoon show at the big 2? That actually aired in the USA.

3 successful Blade films and yet 2018 will mark the second time a Marvel film starred a POC in the lead? DC is no better with 3.

Everyone is scared to take that next step because failure for a POC/female is death versus failure for others.

And also don't forget he's still Falcon outside of comics. Most folks have yet to read about him as Cap because those trades aren't everywhere yet.

[whiterabbit]

That would work, but Sam's already fairly protective of Ian, as Cap's son. Having a younger family take on the Falcon identity might dilute that aspect of the story, as he'd feel directly responsible for two neophyte heroes. I think someone who Sam isn't related to -- maybe someone he saved as the Falcon -- wanting to pick up that legacy -- and perhaps feeling a little bit like Sam sold out by becoming Captain America -- would work really well.

Ooo! Just occurred to me, but Kasper Cole might make a good Falcon. I liked him and was really annoyed that he never caught on. Sam teamed up with him at one point when he was still running around as Black Panther, and he's probably not going by White Tiger anymore, otherwise Ava would hunt him down for some angry words. His perspective was always that the costumes were a means to an end, so I can totally see him thinking that if Sam is going to be Captain America, than Falcon is up for dibs. He'd be someone Sam could be at odds with without actually being a villain, and could make for an interesting story about the nature of legacy in superhero comics.



Absolutely! Could not agree more! Beta Ray Bill won the hammer fair and square in a contest dictated and adjudicated by Odin himself. Why this blond schmuck with the bad Shakespearean accent gets to wield Mjolnir after, when clearly the space horse is most worthy is beyond me. You and me, Whiterabbit, we know who the real Thor is!

That Asgardian pretender?



You're damn right, Bill!

There are no comic book readers who's first reaction to the word "Mjolnir" would think of Beta Ray Bill since they know he uses Stormbreaker. The first character they'd connect with Mjolnir is the same person who's been using it since Norse mythology was discovered in the 12th century.

[XPac]

I can't speak for most Falcon fans, but he doesn't have to have his own monthly title to be a success. There is a way to reimagine him so that he shines and continues to grow his fanbase. The Winter Soldier Sam tapped into something. Marvel writers have to take that and run with it, not bury the character in another man's mantle repeatedly.

The thing to remember is that in all of comics, there's maybe a dozen characters who have proven capable of carrying a solo on-going title. And most of them have frankly been around since day one. Getting a newer character to that level, like say Wolverine back in the day, is like capturing lightning in a bottle. Which isn't to say it's not worty trying... but there's like a 90% chance you're gonna fail in the first 6 months to a year.

Just getting him used REGULARLY I think is a big win for the character. If that means calling him Captain America for a bit then so be it, so long as the story and book are actually worth anyone's time.

[XPac]

Winning Falcon fans or those who loved him in the movie is NOT the issue-it's the folks in charge that have to be convinced. We have seen this before so many times where a minority gets some attention or gets popular and EVERYONE is scared to take that next step. Instead we saw excuses galore.

Static Shock anyone? Ratings higher than Dora, Rugrats, Sponge Bob, WWE and so many others shows even in reruns. Yet no merchandise. Yet we can name a ton of failed and low rated shows that got stuff?

13 years since Static Shock and no POC had had a solo cartoon show at the big 2? That actually aired in the USA.

3 successful Blade films and yet 2018 will mark the second time a Marvel film starred a POC in the lead? DC is no better with 3.

Everyone is scared to take that next step because failure for a POC/female is death versus failure for others.

And also don't forget he's still Falcon outside of comics. Most folks have yet to read about him as Cap because those trades aren't everywhere yet.

I think the Black Panther cartoon and Blade anime both did eventually air in the States. One on BET and the other on G4. So POC characters got a LITTLE love on the cartoon side of things.

[Anubhavkumarc]

falcon punch!

[Justice]

I can't speak for most Falcon fans, but he doesn't have to have his own monthly title to be a success. There is a way to reimagine him so that he shines and continues to grow his fanbase. The Winter Soldier Sam tapped into something. Marvel writers have to take that and run with it, not bury the character in another man's mantle repeatedly.

Honestly, most Falcon fans don't matter to my point. Above anything else, comic books are a business. Success in business is determined by profit and losses.

The Winter Soldier showed people what a great person Sam Wilson is, but it was still a Captain America film. A big issue with the character is that he simply lacks independence. The Winter Soldier also showed those people impressed with his character that once his wings went down, he didn't have a lot to contribute. "Partner" might be the term some fans prefer to use, but he's never been in a book titled The Falcon and Captain America. It's always the other way around because he's the side kick, regardless of the amount of respect Steve shows him. Throughout all these years, he's never stepped out of that shadow. Even in Mighty Avengers, the rest of the team has openly looked at him as Steve's voice on the team. A tech-based hero that can't fix his own gear is a tough sell. It's a major part of the reason Rhodey has always failed on his own.

Until Marvel is willing for one of the 8th smartest men on Earth to be African-American, no black tech hero is going to see much luck.

I think the Black Panther cartoon and Blade anime both did eventually air in the States. One on BET and the other on G4. So POC characters got a LITTLE love on the cartoon side of things.

The Black Panther run was only given six episodes. All the anime stuff were limited to 12. Those are both far removed from Saturday morning cartoon time like Marvel's current stuff.

Note: Black Panther is always going to be a tough sell for African-Americans because he comes from a fictional African nation. Also, it's supposed to be the most technologically advanced nation on Earth, yet their equivalent of The Secret Service typically run around in loin cloth and carry spears.

[PiercedMonk]

There is no comic book readers who's first reaction to the word "Mjolnir" would think of Beta Ray Bill since they know he uses Stormbreaker. The first character they'd connect with Mjolnir is the same person who's been using it since Norse mythology was discovered in the 12th century.

You're right. My first reaction upon hearing mention of Mjolnir is to recall the Marvel 2099 'Fall of the Hammer' crossover. That story was tight! I wonder if Reverend McAdam is going to show up THORS? I really liked the look of his Mjolnir.

Also, if you're familiar with Norse myth, the Marvel Thor really only bares a superficial resemblance to the character of folklore and legend. Hell, Mjolnir is a perfect example of that, unless I missed the comic where Loki needs to make amends for shaving off Sif's blonde hair while she slept, and then attempts to make amends by tricking some dwarves into competing to make the best gifts for his family, including Mjolnir. After watching 'Age of Ultron' my buddy and I laughed at Vision's comment that Mjolnir is perfectly weighted, because part of the legend of its creation is that the handle is too short because Loki turned into a gnat and bit the dwarf working the bellows.

As someone who read a lot of Norse mythology as a teen, I used to be really put off by Marvel's Asgardians, because they're so damn goofy. Which was silly of me, because despite being ridiculous looking, there's also some real good stories in there.

It's funny that you mentioned the Green Lantern Corps up thread as an example of characters that it's cool to share the powers/name around. Old, decrepit comic readers will no doubt remember H.E.A.T. -- i.e. Hal's Emerald Attack/Advancement Team -- which was a group of fans who, way back in the day were so choked that Hal Jordan was sidelined and replaced with Kyle Rayner, that started a sending death threats to writers and editors at DC. Over a comic book character! This is something that real people did in real life! They threatened other real human beings with death because a comic book character they liked kinda got a raw deal going out, and was replaced with a new character.

And it wasn't even the treatment of the objectively best Green Lantern -- Guy Gardner! -- that they were angry about.

All these threads decrying some of the recent changes to Marvel's characters seem a lot like that; people so irrational about changes in a medium that requires change to continue moving forward and not stagnate, that they seem like crazy people.

[ETMike1988]

Maybe there should be a specialized thread for arguing about what to call legacy heroes who take up another, established character's title.

Personally I have no problem using names like "FalCap," "Lady Thor," "Captain Carol" and so forth to distinguish the current title holder from the other characters who held the title. But in-universe, if someone takes over the Captain America job, he's Captain America.

Can we call the current Peter Quill as Star-Blond!?

[whiterabbit]

You're right. My first reaction upon hearing mention of Mjolnir is to recall the Marvel 2099 'Fall of the Hammer' crossover. That story was tight! I wonder if Reverend McAdam is going to show up THORS? I really liked the look of his Mjolnir.

Also, if you're familiar with Norse myth, the Marvel Thor really only bares a superficial resemblance to the character of folklore and legend. Hell, Mjolnir is a perfect example of that, unless I missed the comic where Loki needs to make amends for shaving off Sif's blonde hair while she slept, and then attempts to make amends by tricking some dwarves into competing to make the best gifts for his family, including Mjolnir. After watching 'Age of Ultron' my buddy and I laughed at Vision's comment that Mjolnir is perfectly weighted, because part of the legend of its creation is that the handle is too short because Loki turned into a gnat and bit the dwarf working the bellows.

As someone who read a lot of Norse mythology as a teen, I used to be really put off by Marvel's Asgardians, because they're so damn goofy. Which was silly of me, because despite being ridiculous looking, there's also some real good stories in there.

It's funny that you mentioned the Green Lantern Corps up thread as an example of characters that it's cool to share the powers/name around. Old, decrepit comic readers will no doubt remember H.E.A.T. -- i.e. Hal's Emerald Attack/Advancement Team -- which was a group of fans who, way back in the day were so choked that Hal Jordan was sidelined and replaced with Kyle Rayner, that started a sending death threats to writers and editors at DC. Over a comic book character! This is something that real people did in real life! They threatened other real human beings with death because a comic book character they liked kinda got a raw deal going out, and was replaced with a new character.

And it wasn't even the treatment of the objectively best Green Lantern -- Guy Gardner! -- that they were angry about.

All these threads decrying some of the recent changes to Marvel's characters seem a lot like that; people so irrational about changes in a medium that requires change to continue moving forward and not stagnate, that they seem like crazy people.

Oh, Kyle Rayner is a great character. He's my favorite GL since he's more vulnerable and open to learning than the others. I think people didn't like Kyle being Hal's replacement was... well, because Kyle was introduced and tossed a ring in his first appearance. It wasn't a situation like Wally West. Writers just said "This character is your new main character. You have no idea who this is, but this is the new Green Lantern."

Thor not having a red beard and missing much of his mythological lore was probably intentionally skipped by Stan Lee since an overwhelming majority is just nasty, which would never fly with the censors. I'm not sure an adult only label could justify a comic showing the giant Gjalp trying to drown superheroes in her period blood.

What bothers me about Falcon being Captain America is, as shown from readers nicknaming everyone carrying the shield, Steve Rogers is so closely connected with that image that there is nothing writers can do to ever change that. And Marvel tries selling us on this thing like it's permanent by going on the View or Colbert Report.

[Pat Thomas]

Oh, Kyle Rayner is a great character. He's my favorite GL since he's more vulnerable and open to learning than the others. I think people didn't like Kyle being Hal's replacement was... well, because Kyle was introduced and tossed a ring in his first appearance. It wasn't a situation like Wally West. Writers just said "This character is your new main character. You have no idea who this is, but this is the new Green Lantern."

Thor not having a red beard and missing much of his mythological lore was probably intentionally skipped by Stan Lee since an overwhelming majority is just nasty, which would never fly with the censors. I'm not sure an adult only label could justify a comic showing the giant Gjalp trying to drown superheroes in her period blood.

What bothers me about Falcon being Captain America is, as shown from readers nicknaming everyone carrying the shield, Steve Rogers is so closely connected with that image that there is nothing writers can do to ever change that. And Marvel tries selling us on this thing like it's permanent by going on the View or Colbert Report.

What do you expect them to say? The truth? "It's to stimulate interest and try to lure in new readers. Of course, the originals still have millions of fans, so they'll be back
eventually. We hope to attract more diverse readers in the meantime" about sums it up. Long-time readers know that anyway. Does Marvel need to spell it out for everybody?
I've noticed that no matter what action they take with their characters, it's never enough the for fanbase anyway. When a minority gets the spotlight, there's always something
wrong with the way it's presented. Always. It is impossible to please some readers even by giving them what they ask for, and then there is the majority of other readers who
are just plain terrified of change in any form. So Marvel just does what they think is best for their business. You have the choice to vote with your wallet. Complaining on a
message board with like-minded people isn't going to affect their business decisions.

[whiterabbit]

What do you expect them to say? The truth? "It's to stimulate interest and try to lure in new readers. Of course, the originals still have millions of fans, so they'll be back
eventually. We hope to attract more diverse readers in the meantime" about sums it up. Long-time readers know that anyway. Does Marvel need to spell it out for everybody?
I've noticed that no matter what action they take with their characters, it's never enough the for fanbase anyway. When a minority gets the spotlight, there's always something
wrong with the way it's presented. Always. It is impossible to please some readers even by giving them what they ask for, and then there is the majority of other readers who
are just plain terrified of change in any form. So Marvel just does what they think is best for their business. You have the choice to vote with your wallet. Complaining on a
message board with like-minded people isn't going to affect their business decisions.

I wouldn't say minority is the issue why changing mantles rubs people the wrong way. I'd say fans just feel connected with certain characters and hate seeing them go. Everyone loves Kamala Khan as Ms. Marvel, Jaime Reyes as Blue Beetle, and Miles Morales as Spider-Man.

[JudicatorPrime]

Until Marvel is willing for one of the 8th smartest men on Earth to be African-American, no black tech hero is going to see much luck.

One of the things that I like about the cartoon version of the Falcon is that he is highly adept and helps create his own tech. As far as comics go, the only character that qualifies as both brilliant and independent is Adam Brashear. No, I doubt we'll ever see him lecturing to Stark, Pym, Richards, Doom or the existing intelligentsia. The Prowler makes his own tech, but no one is going to call him in a crisis. Phastos makes pretty much all of the advanced Eternals tech, but somehow no one ever thinks of him as a brilliant mind either.

Alas, as you know, the only limit here is the writer's imagination and inspiration. Whether or not a character sells books is really secondary in the creators' minds. After all, some of the most popular characters were created as throw away characters. And some characters only still have books because Marvel made the hard determination to do whatever is necessary to prop up their "flagship" books when the financial support from fans wasn't there.